Brené Brown | The One Thing That Changes Everything [Best of]

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Episode Transcript:

Brené Brown: [00:00:00] One of the things that I say that maybe pisses people off more than anything else I say, whether it’s leaders, parents, is that we cannot give people what we don’t have, and we can’t ask people to do what we’re not doing. And that makes people crazy. And I get it as a parent, especially, because, you know, when I tell parents, you can’t raise a child with a greater sense of resilience than your own, you can’t raise a child with more self-compassion than what you have. They get twitchy, they get crunchy, and you. But when I tell people I’m not sure that you can love a child more than you love yourself, people get hostile.

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:38] So what if daring to be open and real unlocked not just your greatest potential, but also pretty much everything good in every relationship or experience you could ever have? What if the thing that so many of us fear most, that others will discover how flawed and human and real we are, is actually the gateway to the life we so desperately want to live. And what if choosing courage over comfort opened the doors to a world and life you never imagined? These are just some of the questions that I dive into with Brene Brown. So Bernie has spent the last two decades studying the transformational power of vulnerability. Author of six number one New York Times bestsellers, Bernie is really inspiring. Research on courage, worthiness and shame has enlightened millions worldwide, and a research professor at University of Houston, she’s a leading voice on topics like empathy, resilience and living a whole hearted life. Her groundbreaking Ted talk on the power of vulnerability has now been viewed over 60 million times, and I really love Bernie’s ability to translate complicated academic concepts into just accessible language and stories. And speaking of stories, he is a deeply compelling storyteller who will draw you in, then open your heart, in no small part by sharing hers with you first.

Jonathan Fields: [00:01:59] In fact, the conversation that unfolded between us moved both of us to tears at various points. Bernie was so beautifully real, raw, candid, and wise as a best of episode. Every part of this conversation is as relevant today, maybe more so given the current climate than it was the day we talked. As Bernie notes, there is incredible power in the willingness to be seen in owning our stories. We can own our lives. A willingness to face uncertainty, a vulnerability and emotional exposure together is what allows communities to truly connect. So listen in as Bernie and I explore the courage and compassion that emerge when we dare to be open, real and seen. The conversation that unfolded really did leave me changed, and perhaps it will inspire you to pursue an idea you’ve kept to yourself for too long. So excited to share this best of conversation with you! I’m Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.. Awesome to have you here with us.

Brené Brown: [00:02:59] I’m excited to be here. Thank you. One of my fascinations with you is, um, you present. So, like, when I first saw your TEDx talks.

Jonathan Fields: [00:03:06] I was blown.

Brené Brown: [00:03:07] Away, as were millions.

Jonathan Fields: [00:03:08] And billions of people. You present as this radiant, wise, snarky, funny presence. And I’m always curious when I see that in somebody. Somebody who’s so strong and so powerful and so full of life. Is this something that you sort of, like, stepped into later in life, or were you the kid who sort of manifested this also?

Brené Brown: [00:03:29] No, I was not a I mean, definitely I was not the kid. Um, I think I stepped into it much later in life. And I think what I stepped into was understanding that the weird, introverted pattern scene person that I was when I stepped into is a sense of, I like that person. And I. And I want to be that person. And but I think I dreaded being that person growing up, I think I thought, wow, something’s off face because it’s not like, you know, I grew up watching, you know, I went to Greece 25 times when it came out, you know, like I wanted to be that person. I wanted to be Olivia Newton-John with a cigarette and a catsuit, you know, winning over John Travolta. Like, I didn’t want to be the. I didn’t think, you know, I’m awesome. I’m 13 and I’m going to be a qualitative researcher and study things, scare the shit out of people. Right on. You know, I thought, like, I want to date with a quarterback, you know, because that’s how I was raised. And so the things that about me that I love now, I were painful probably then, like I’ve always seen things in patterns and I didn’t know that there was like a job like that. That’s what qualitative researchers do. So I just thought maybe I was a part of the underworld or something. Or something? I thought it was like. I thought it was weird and I didn’t fit in. Really. So I have a sense of belonging.

Jonathan Fields: [00:05:02] I mean, which which is probably a more common experience than most people own up to?

Brené Brown: [00:05:05] Yeah, I think that makes me in the majority for sure. Maybe I just yeah. At what point.

Jonathan Fields: [00:05:11] Do you start to realize in your life that that in fact that does make you in the majority?

Brené Brown: [00:05:17] When I started doing this work, I mean, I think that’s that’s the gift of doing this work, is that I know no matter how bleak the feeling, how desperate the feeling, how weird the experience or smell or idea that none of us are alone. Um, some. I did a radio show on Wisconsin Public Radio a couple days ago, and a caller called in and shared a tick, not Han quote with me. Um, that just brought me to my knees. It said, um, our purpose. And I’m kind of probably going to butcher it a little bit, but our sole purpose here is to get over the the illusion of our separateness, you know. And I think that’s what my work is. Like, we’re all in this together. And I had no idea that the things that made me feel so much on the outside were the things that would ultimately, when I stepped into some self-worth, be the things that connected me the strongest to other people? Does that make sense? Yeah, I mean, I think it does.

Jonathan Fields: [00:06:17] I’m I’m curious also whether it was an evolutionary experience for you to realize this or whether there were moments, you know, where they’re sort of like decisive moments or experiences with people or things that made you say, okay, I’m starting to get that. There’s there’s a different way to live in the world, and I want to be a part of figuring that out.

Brené Brown: [00:06:37] Now, there was a decisive moment. There were. Yeah. I’m not like a slow, unraveling kind of person. As much as I would like to be. No, there was a moment. I mean, I can picture. I know what I was wearing. Like, it was in November of 2006. I was at my I had a wooden, red painted breakfast room table. I was sitting at the table. I was coating a bunch of new data, asking this new question for the first time, going back into the same data and saying, well, okay, I understand what shame is and I understand how that operates in our lives, but what about these men and women who are living wholeheartedly? Like who are really all in? What did they have in common? And I had giant, um, you know, those post-it notes that are poster sized. I had them all over my kitchen and my living room, and I was writing down words. And basically what emerged from that process were two lists, like, here are the behaviors that the wholehearted folks are engaging in, and here’s what they are trying to let go of. Here’s what they’re trying to move away from in their lives and then move away from list was it was as if someone described me on a list like I was every I called it the shit list. I was everything on that list. Um, judgmental, perfectionistic, all work. Um, not only no play, no rest, but kind of disregard for play and rest and people who thought it was important.

Jonathan Fields: [00:07:56] So you’re coming at it from this like science, mind. Let me just figure this out. And then you’re looking at this, you’re like, oh my, this is personal.

Brené Brown: [00:08:04] Oh, I was devastated. I couldn’t believe it. I just remember holding my hands up on the top of the table and putting my head down and just thinking, because, you know, I think up until that moment and then the work that followed, I trusted my professional self immensely, but didn’t trust my personal self as much. So I knew that I know I’m a good researcher. And so I knew if these words were emerging like these qualities were important, these choices, doing something creative, you know, like that’s a great example, like creativity emerged is so important. Comparison emerged as the shame counterpoint to that. And I was in this comparative person, you could I mean every I was always comparing myself to other people and I was scoffing at creativity like people would say, hey, do you want to go do a painting class with me or do you want to scrapbook? And up until that moment, I would say no. I thought it was flaky and self-indulgent, and I’m not going to really do that kind of crap. I’m busy working. So, yeah, it was. There was a moment that sort of shifted.

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:08] So I.

Brené Brown: [00:09:09] Actually want to.

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:09] I want to kind of go a little bit deeper there. But before that for you used the word wholeheartedness a lot. Talk to me about that. What is it? What do you mean when you use that, that phrase.

Brené Brown: [00:09:19] I was trying to figure out a word. I’m a grounded theory researcher, which means we take. We develop theory from people’s lived experiences. And then our primary job is to language it in a way that resonates with people. And so I was trying to figure out what’s a word for people that I would describe as all in who are just really living and loving entirely. Um, and wholehearted is language in And actually in the Book of Common Prayer, that in the Episcopal Church that we use. And there’s this line that says, I have not loved you with my whole heart, and that I was always very powerful for me when I said it. And so the word that came to mind was wholehearted.

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:06] So which is kind of fascinating right there, too, because you’re, you’re taking some a term which comes from a place which is very not scientific, it’s very faith based, super.

Brené Brown: [00:10:15] Faith based.

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:16] And then you’re bringing it into your world, which is like totally linear, like prove it or it doesn’t matter. You know, what happens, you know, like, how do you measure that?

Brené Brown: [00:10:26] No, it’s true. And I’ve received a I got a lot of flack from it too. From from the academic community. Yeah. Huh. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:34] For the use of the term. Yeah.

Brené Brown: [00:10:36] You shouldn’t name constructs things or that are immeasurable. And so that was hard for me because, you know, one of the things I talk about in the Ted talk is that I used I had a little sign in my office when I was a doctoral student in teaching that said, if you can’t measure it, it doesn’t exist. Right. And I loved thinking that we could live in that world. Now, I have a sign above my study that says, if you can measure it, it’s probably not that important.

Jonathan Fields: [00:11:02] I love.

Brené Brown: [00:11:03] It.

Jonathan Fields: [00:11:03] Um, well, it’s like the shadow side.

Brené Brown: [00:11:05] It is the shadow side. Um, and so I think I didn’t care at that point. I just felt like I was on to something that was super important for me personally. And it resonated with me. And you know what? What else would you call it? Social adaptability. It’s not that’s not what I was looking for. I was looking for wholeheartedness. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:11:27] And it’s something that the common person. Yeah. Can I mean, I’m sure there’s there’s enough ambiguity so that people can kind of like, say, like, this is how I feel wholeheartedness applies in my world, in my life. But there’s enough universality to the term that I think people just kind of get what it’s about.

Brené Brown: [00:11:42] Yeah. And I think that’s I think that’s my job as a researcher. Like one of the things I never really talked about this before, but I think you’re an interesting you’d be as as the uncertainty person. You’d be a great person to talk to about this, that there is one of the greatest losses, I think, that is happening in our world today is that academics are shamed for accessibility. Mm. I mean, it makes me teary eyed because it makes me think how much great information we’re losing, even whether you buy into it or if it’s real or not real, that we’re losing the debate and the discourse because to be accessible is some kind of really like albatross. It’s like if you’re accessible and people understand your work, that means you’re not very smart. Um, and so to me, so basically.

Jonathan Fields: [00:12:33] You’re writing only for people that are in rarefied air. And if you’re if the average person on the street can understand there’s something wrong with what you’re.

Brené Brown: [00:12:40] Doing, right? And there’s I mean, and really there’s like interesting journal articles that say, you know, the average academic journal article, the average one, not the one that makes it into the times or something, is read by ten people. And then I think eight of them are probably just checking to see if they’re referenced in it, you know. Um, and so to me, I had no interest for that for this reason. It’s an interesting backstory when I did the shame research, because I’m a qualitative researcher, I would sit down like we’re sitting down and collect data and talk to people about their stories. It was the first time I’d ever done research when people, when we were done with the interview, looked at me pleadingly and said, when you figure this out, you’re going to tell me, right? And my answer in the beginning was, no, I’m going to publish it in something that you’ll never have access to. Ouch. Right. That was my I didn’t say that, but that’s what I thought. And then I thought, you know what? I’m not going to do that anymore. You know, I don’t want to. I don’t want to spend my time. I mean, I still have to do it, and I probably should do it more. Um, but I don’t want to spend my time doing something that’s not, in my opinion, moving people forward. And if I can’t pick it up and read it in, my friends can’t pick it up and read it. And I have to look up words in the thesaurus to sound smart. I’m not doing it anymore. It’s not why I’m here. It’s not in service of my work. And my faith is really an organizing principle in my life. And and it pushes up against that value. Mhm. So that’s kind of how wholehearted I was scared at first.

Jonathan Fields: [00:14:09] That I would imagine it would be. Yeah. I mean because you’re really bringing two worlds together in a way where each world probably has substantial doubt about the validity of the other one. And also, um, and like you said, especially because you operate in your own, you’re living like in an academic setting. So, you know, that’s got to bring on a lot of fear. It’s like, you know, am I going to be drummed out of my profession now? Am I going to like, just. Am I going to be still there? But I’ll be the laughing stock of my profession for the rest of my career, you know, versus is this work so powerful that it needs? It’s the work that it can’t not do and it must get out.

Brené Brown: [00:14:43] Yeah. And I think it’s interesting because grounded theory in itself is very controversial, I think, in a lot of academic places because because you don’t start with existing theories and proven disprove them. You start from people’s lived experiences. You often come up with conclusions that bump up hard against what’s already established in the literature. So and I love it because Glaser and Strauss, who developed the I think they were like spirited in terms of my approach. Um, they said use names that resonate with people. And so one of the ways we measure the accuracy of our theories is resonance fit. Do people see themselves and their lives and their stories and the narratives that you’re creating with your data? And I love that.

Jonathan Fields: [00:15:24] And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors, the entrepreneur in me and the writer in me, um, looks at that model. And that’s actually that’s the model that actually builds the most successful businesses. But it’s the exact opposite model that most entrepreneurs start with. Most entrepreneurs get an idea for a product or service or solution, and then they go looking for a market, right? And then they’re like, okay, who are the people that we can sell this to? And whereas, you know, rather than saying, okay, let me just reach out to a community that I feel like I want to be in service of and have really deep, intense conversations with them. And maybe I’m part of that community, you know? So let me start with my own experience and then with the experience of people in this community and find out what are they feeling, what are they not feeling? What’s the conversation that’s already going on in their head? And can I build messaging and solutions around that in a way that can make me of further service to them, and in doing so, create a living, a career, a business that that builds around that. And in my experience, I.

Brené Brown: [00:16:27] Love.

Jonathan Fields: [00:16:28] That those are the people where not only individually do you really come alive, but those are the businesses that have profound impact in the world and that kind of catch fire because You’re you’re not trying to sell something to anybody. You’re simply caring about them so deeply that you take the time to understand what they need and then just giving it to them. And so many times people don’t do that. And it’s a really so from the business side, it’s this it’s this interesting overlay with what you’re saying, the approach to how you research.

Brené Brown: [00:16:58] I have never thought about that until this exact second, but I love that. And I think it’s exactly grounded theory, because what’s interesting, I never thought about entrepreneurship. I think of I’ve got a really cool thing. Right. Exactly.

Jonathan Fields: [00:17:11] Let me go find somebody who wants it.

Brené Brown: [00:17:13] Yeah, but, um, in grounded theory, there’s the whole the whole thing is it’s called trust. And emergence is the axiom trust in what emerges from the data, trust in people’s lived experiences and their perception of those experiences. Um, but what you do is you. The goal of grounded theory is to find out what is the main concern of a group of people you want to know about, know more about, and then your theory should explain how they’re trying to continually resolve that concern. Mhm. So it’s very much in line. Yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:17:46] I mean it’s it’s kind.

Brené Brown: [00:17:47] Of like entrepreneurship I like it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:17:48] No it is. I mean like the, the really good entrepreneurs know that. You know you come in and you’re probably going to start out, you know there’s we’re human beings. So there’s no way we can start the process without certain assumptions. Right. You know, like they’re just going to be there. Um, but the most successful people will always be the ones that are open to serendipity or open to the market, proving them wrong, and then listening to what the market says is right and then deciding whether they actually want to create that or not. Exact thing. Yeah. So it’s not I want to learn more about like sort of like your whole methodology.

Brené Brown: [00:18:18] Now I will I’ll give you something because it’s exactly the same. And in fact, you evaluate a theory that’s a grounded theory. One of the, one of the the codes we live by is and it’s so much in line with entrepreneurship now that you pointed this incredible thing out. Um, a theory can never be as good is only as good as its ability to work new data. Mm. So, like a business? Yeah. Would only be as good as its ability to address the evolving and changing needs of the market. Right.

Jonathan Fields: [00:18:50] Which is where a lot of big, bigger companies get in huge trouble because they started. And maybe they were actually really smart. They understood the pain points, the needs of a market when they started, and they served them beautifully. But markets aren’t stationary. You know, like things, they’re living, breathing beasts that move and change and morph. And especially in the last 4 or 5 years, we’ve seen that in a profound way. And I’ve talked to so many people who are who are past the what you probably consider classic entrepreneur and like real big established businesses and their their businesses are shrinking fast. And they’re just thinking we’re going under, you know, rather than, um, well, no, actually all the assumptions that we built around are no longer valid. So we actually we don’t have to just keep trying to, you know, like work on that same model. We can actually look for where the pain points in the conversations have moved to, and see if we can adapt what we do and how we do it to the those new needs. Um, a lot of people don’t want to do that.

Jonathan Fields: [00:19:48] They’re so vested in the way things work and they they’re terrified. And this is I’m so curious what you think about this. Also, most people who start businesses, um, they start them and they accepted a certain amount of uncertainty and risk and fear and anxiety and all this stuff and failure. Um, and very often it’s because part of the dynamic is they don’t have a whole lot to lose in the beginning. Right? Then they build something substantial. Now they do have a lot to lose. So when I was talking about like that business that now has to adapt to a whole different thing now that they’re in a place where they don’t have, there’s a lot to lose if they sort of like guess wrong or they don’t, um, they become incredibly fearful in a way that they didn’t, or they’re not able to move through the fear and the change and the uncertainty in a way That they were much more able to when they started a business, which really ties in, I think, with a lot of your exploration of vulnerability.

Brené Brown: [00:20:42] Yeah, I you’re going to be hard pressed to get me shaking loose this parallel between business. And I’m so obsessed with it now. It’s so fascinating because, you know, the axiom again, of trust in the emergence is, I think, what I’ve seen in my experience talking to businesses and talking to not just entrepreneurs, but big corporations is they don’t they don’t trust in the process that brought them success. Yeah, they start to trust in the product of the process. Right, right. Yeah. And they lose their trust for the process, which is trust in emergence. Trust the people you’re serving. And so the same is true with researchers. Like for me, the minute I say I don’t care what emerges from this interview with Jonathan, I’ve already got a theory out there in the academic literature. This has got to hold up. And the minute I shift, my work is dead. Mm. It no longer rings true. It’s not innovative, it’s not exciting. And so but you know, Barney Glaser, one of the founders of Grounded Theory, calls it the Drugless trip. You have to have a real oh, you have to have a real comfort with uncertainty and vulnerability to do the kind of research I do. You lose a lot. Like, I mentor a lot of doctoral students and sit on a lot of dissertations for grounded theory folks who get halfway through and think, this is too uncertain. I want to go back to the take an existing theory, prove or disprove it with data, write it up. Be done. I don’t want to do. I don’t want to trust an emergence and let something new and that we haven’t talked about yet emerge. I don’t have the stomach for it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:16] Yeah.

Brené Brown: [00:22:16] You know, and so so for me, the vulnerability piece, um, and I get that because I was that person.

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:23] And so I think we’re all that person.

Brené Brown: [00:22:26] We’re all that person. Yeah. And that’s important.

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:28] Because. Right. It’s it’s not like, you know, I mean, maybe there are these freakish people, you know, they have this really thin slice of humanity that just doesn’t feel it. Or their brains are soft wired from the beginning to process it differently. But most of us, it hurts.

Brené Brown: [00:22:41] It does hurt. And you know, and to say I wasn’t one of those people is exactly against like I have the four myths of vulnerability and daring greatly. And the first one is that it’s weakness. Yeah. You know, and I define vulnerability as uncertainty risk and emotional exposure. Right. And so I think one of the reasons we lose tolerance for it or we don’t we can’t sit with the process, is because we’ve been raised to believe that being vulnerable and walking into a meeting with, you know, funders or whomever or whatever your situation is and saying, I don’t know, I think some of the most incredible examples that I read and include in the book are about business people who stand up in front of their leadership and say, I don’t know what to do next. And you may know more than I do. I need your help. That’s powerful. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:37] And that is the single most terrifying thing that I think any leader could do, but also that maybe the most powerful thing they could do simultaneously. Like you were saying, though, people think it’s. It’s all. If I do that, I’m weak, right?

Brené Brown: [00:23:53] Pete Fuda, who is a leadership he’s a researcher in Australia, in Sydney, and he studies transformative, transformative leadership. And he does long case studies, um, over five and six years studying leadership and how it transforms within an organization. And he has this great article that was in Harvard Business Review, where he uses metaphors to talk about what transformative leaders share in common. And one of them is the snowball. And he’s and he tells the story of a of a CEO, a new CEO who kind of came aboard and was very directive, very instructive, and things really started unraveling, and he decided to kind of risk vulnerability and stood up in front of all of his leaders together and said, I’m getting feedback that my style, the way I communicate and give you feedback is is pushing innovation down. I need your help. I need to know how to be better at this. I need to know how to work with you. And what Pete found in his research, not only in this case, but across the the cultures he was studying, is that it created this huge snowball effect. If those leaders in turn felt permission to stand with their teams and say, I can’t do this without you. And those people. And then it created this thing that took off through the culture. And what it shook loose was it got so big and fast, the momentum of it that it shook loose all the drag that people that were not willing to say, I need help, I don’t know, I’m in over my head, couldn’t hold on anymore in the culture. Is that fascinating?

Jonathan Fields: [00:25:30] Yeah. It’s amazing. And it also really speaks to the top down, you know, like idea that it all comes from the people that are at the very tip top, you know, like if that one person, you know, like if you have a CEO and, and she or he doesn’t actually say, okay, I’m owning this myself, um, nobody else in an organization will own it. And the reverse is true, too, you know, like the same snowball effect. If that person steps up and says, yeah, um, I don’t know which way is up right now, but we’re all really smart. Let’s see if we can figure this out together. I mean, and it’s so funny too, because I’ve had so many conversations. I’m sure you have also with sort of management teams and leadership people, and they’re like, well, how do we get the people under us to buy this or to act in this way or to create in this way? And like the first question is, well, are you behaving in that way or acting in that way like, no, no, no, no, this isn’t about me, right? It’s like, no, actually it is right. You know, you everything that you say. And this is as a parent, you know this, right?

Brené Brown: [00:26:28] I mean, that’s like. Hello. You know, like.

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:30] You can’t say do this if like, then you’re doing something completely different because your kids are going to look at and be like, mhm, mhm. Right. So same thing in organizations. It’s the same dynamic. But people don’t see that.

Brené Brown: [00:26:40] Now I think one of the things that I say that maybe pisses people off more than anything else, I say, whether it’s leaders, parents, is that we cannot give people what we don’t have and we can’t ask people to do what we’re not doing. And that makes people crazy. And I get it as a parent, especially, because, you know, when I tell parents you can’t raise a child with a greater sense of resilience than your own. Mhm. You can’t raise a child with more self-compassion than what you have. They’re like they get twitchy, they get crunchy and you. But when I tell people I’m not sure that you can love a child more than you love yourself, people get hostile.

Jonathan Fields: [00:27:23] Yeah I bet.

Brené Brown: [00:27:24] Because people want to say, you know, that’s crazy. I love my kids way more than I love myself, and it’s often the parents of very young children who say that. What’s interesting to me is it’s the parents of teens who say, oh God, I get that because what happens is fourth, fifth grade, certainly middle school, beginning of high school, what our kids start to become us in some ways, and we see our partners and things that bug the crap out of us about our partners emerge in our kids are the things that bug us about us, right? That self-compassion or that compassion turns to judgment. Like, what do you mean you didn’t have anyone to sit with at lunch? And rather than saying, oh God, I remember that, let’s talk about that. You say, well, pull your hair back and wear some of those cute outfits I bought you, and then maybe your friends will want to sit with you and that’s your stuff.

Jonathan Fields: [00:28:18] Yeah. And I think we’ve all like, you know, as you’re saying this, I’m like, scanning right now. So I’m like, okay. Like I consider myself a pretty, like, compassionate, you know, like open guy. But I’m like, I’m sure there have been so many things where I’ve just reacted without even realizing that I’m reacting because of a cap on my own capability to deal with my own stuff. And it’s manifesting in my response to other people like, you know, which is, um, it’s not easy to own that, you know?

Brené Brown: [00:28:47] And I’ve done it. I mean, you know, it’s people say, well, we can’t all be, you know, shame free all the time like you. And I’m, I think to myself, I’ve never been a parent and not been a shame researcher. I mean, I started just around the time my daughter was born, right before. And I’d done it because we’re human. And I think that’s why I think, you know, I talk a lot about the gifts of imperfect parenting. I think it’s those moments where, I mean, I remember telling Ellen one time she she was doing this whole thing about she wore a side ponytail. She came home with a different ponytail. I said, hey, what happened to your side ponytail? She said, oh, I took it out because my friend thought it looked terrible. And I said, but I thought you loved it. And she said, yeah, but you know, they gave me a hard time. And so I went into the whole, like, you have to do what you love, not what other people think. And then five minutes later, I’m telling Steve, you’ve got to pull the Christmas lights out of the yard. What are my neighbors going to think? You know, and Ellen’s five feet away from me, you know, and she said, I don’t understand. I said, do you understand what she says? The ponytail, the lights. Huh? You know, I’m like, she’s.

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:58] Keeping you honest.

Brené Brown: [00:29:59] Yeah. I’m like, oh my God, you’re right. It’s just rhetoric, you know? If I tell my daughter your body is beautiful, you know, our value would probably be to say something like, this is the body that God gave you, and it’s strong and wonderful and, you know, and then she walks in, and I’m using a lot of hateful self-talk about my jeans not fitting. Which one do you think matters the most? But it’s the same with leaders. You know, if leaders say to teams, you know, hey, we want innovation, so we’ll expect failure, fail often, fail quick, clean it up and move on. But they see a leader scared to death of failing, scared of trying, scared of being uncertain or vulnerable. Then the messages. That other stuff is lip service. This is about perfection. And even if it stifles creativity, we can’t be wrong, right?

Jonathan Fields: [00:30:58] So one so one of the big things is that people perceive vulnerability as weakness. And it seems like the answer is you got to own the change. And you basically have to say, okay. Yeah. But I mean how do you do that? I mean, if you’re somebody where you’re, you know, let’s say you’re a leader, you’re a parent or you’re just a creator, you’re an artist, you know, and you want to do something and, um. And you’re terrified of being vulnerable. You’re a human being living in the world who’s terrified of of opening up and revealing who you are. You know, like going into the uncertainty, the risk. Yeah. Um, how do you make that jump? Well.

Brené Brown: [00:31:37] I think I think the first place is, I mean, and it may be different whether you’re a cognitive person or a feel your way through person. But I think for those of us who think first and feel second, which would be me. Um, I think getting clear on what vulnerability is and isn’t is really important for this reason. 12 years of research I cannot find a single example of courage, of moral courage, spiritual courage, leadership, courage. I cannot find a single example in our data of courage that was not based on sheer vulnerability. Mm. And so I think one of the things we have to do, first of all, is dispel these myths. I mean. And get clear on our values. I mean, for me, I don’t. It doesn’t hurt less when I get criticized, when I put myself out there, or when you put yourself out there, people who are trying to, you know, during great leaves from the Roosevelt quote, you know, it’s my favorite.

Jonathan Fields: [00:32:33] Quotes, by the way, as I said, as soon as I saw that, I was like, I know where that’s from.

Brené Brown: [00:32:37] You do.

Jonathan Fields: [00:32:38] So I.

Brené Brown: [00:32:38] Love that. Yeah. It’s not the critic who counts. It’s not the man who points at the strong man as he stumbles or how the, you know, points out how the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit goes to those of us who are in the arena, who I mean, to totally paraphrase, getting their asses kicked, sometimes falling on our faces, failing, sometimes victorious. But at least when we’re failing, we’re doing greatly. I think when I talk to people who’ve made the transition from, I really want to put these homemade journals on Etsy, but I’m really afraid to do that. I really want to ask my boss for this promotion or this raise. I really want to share this idea at the PTO meeting next week when I asked people, where did you muster up the courage? How did you screw up the courage to do this? The answer was always. I got very clear that being courageous was more important to me as a value than succeeding. And so to me, it comes down to an area of your work that I think is so important. Really serious intention setting and very clear values alignment. You know, and I think it it is very necessary to have people in our lives who, when we dare greatly, when we’re vulnerable, when we try something new and it doesn’t work out and we come up short who are willing to look at us and say, but you were brave.

Jonathan Fields: [00:34:11] Yeah, I think those people having those people around you are. And that’s I’m sure you’ve experienced the same thing. I’ve had so many conversations with people where they said, I don’t have those people. Yeah. What do I do? Because every time I do this, like, everybody around me lines up and says, I told you so. You’re an idiot. You know, like I knew you were going to fail. And which is which is kind of interesting because to me, one of the potential great equalizers, there is the potential to use technology to flatten the world and find people like that. And it’s not the same thing as the people who live in your neighborhood. You can hug and kiss and like, just have a cup of coffee with. And it’s not the same. I would love to say it is because, you know, like I live and breathe in that world, but it’s not. Um, but I think it helps to have access to a small group of people who may be dotted in five different countries, but they’re deeply committed to each other and share the same values. So to me, I’ve seen that help people who live in a small town somewhere and are in a family where there were that approach to life is completely rejected. Um, but I think I think it’s a very it’s a tough problem. And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors. One of the things that that I look at is I think a lot of times it’s part of it is what we tell ourselves. But I think a lot of it is the questions we ask ourselves also around our ability to sort of unlock action in the face of perceived weakness and vulnerability. I think so many of us, all we focus on is, what if I fail, right? Rather than, um, what if I succeed, right? And what if I do nothing? Which is very often the most terrifying answer of three. No, there’s no doubt.

Brené Brown: [00:35:52] And I mean something you said about people who are surrounded by communities who are critical. I told you so. You were so stupid to do that. One thing, that I think it’s really important, and I feel ethically bound to say to people a lot of times about the work is be clear that when you start to dare greatly, when you start to be vulnerable and take chances, you are going to be holding a very uncomfortable mirror for people. Yeah. And a lot of times, if you’re surrounded by people who say, I told you so or who are critical, it’s because daring greatly to watch someone be vulnerable and risk, to watch someone walk headlong into uncertainty is so uncomfortable for people who are not willing to do that, that they’re dying to see failure and to point it out as confirmation that my way of living right is okay. And the whole dotted around, like I think there was a group of women we call ourselves the Love Bombers. Um, there was a group of women, um, they are artists, photographers, writers. I got a call one day from them, probably five, six years ago. They said, you don’t know us. We know you from online. I think you read our blogs, we read yours. We’re going to gather together on the Oregon coast. Would you like to join us? And I was like, oh, hell no.

Brené Brown: [00:37:12] Um, like that’s not, you know, like I was voted least likely to show up with a group of hippie girls that’s smoking cloves, like, and doing art. Like, I was like, no. And my husband was like, I think you might need this. I was like, are you kidding me? And he said, I think you should go. And it really changed my life because again, it was technology. And I totally agree with what you said. Um, when I’m throwing up and sick, these are not the people who hold my hair back. They’re not the people who bring the casseroles over during hard times, but they are a group of people who where we made an agreement that we would be vulnerable and brave together, and that we would create a space for each other where we never had to shrink who we were really proud of, what we were doing, our successes. And we never have to puff up when we were feeling small and ashamed that we were all going to be brave together and take our licks and, you know. And so I think that’s really important. Um, it was life changing for me. And so I think if you are in a small town, I think World Domination Summit.

Jonathan Fields: [00:38:10] Yeah. Great example.

Brené Brown: [00:38:11] I mean.

Jonathan Fields: [00:38:12] I think a lot of people go to that just because they fly from all over the world, because they can’t find those people, and it’s like their one time every year where they can, like, be on the ground with like minded people, and then they take that with them. I think a lot of things can start out digitally. Yeah. And then it stays in sort of this ethereal, kind of supportive level. Yeah. But then you can meet somebody and spend three days with them, and then when you leave, it’s a very different dynamic. It’s a totally different.

Brené Brown: [00:38:38] Yeah. I mean and I think yeah, like I would have never I don’t think I’ve ever done. I know before or since anything like my talk at Pearl Domination Summit, like I would never have tried something so crazy and out there had I not been, you know, around people who were there to explore. How brave am I willing to be? Right. You know. And so I do think there’s something about that. I think one of the other myths about vulnerability that you pointed, that you touched on was the idea that we can go it alone.

Jonathan Fields: [00:39:11] Mhm.

Brené Brown: [00:39:12] Yeah, that’s still even. Even in a world where people are pretty awake and conscious about connection, it’s still a very highly regarded ideal. You know, this is where I quote Whitesnake in the book, you know, like, right here I go again on my own, like we all want to.

Jonathan Fields: [00:39:33] I love your taste in music as like an old brush and, you know, like. Yeah. Fanatic.

Brené Brown: [00:39:38] Yeah. I’m a Rush fanatic too. And so that’s one thing that’s so fun about the book. People are like, mostly guys were like, dude, you quoted rush.

Jonathan Fields: [00:39:46] I love like, the ultimate philosopher.

Brené Brown: [00:39:50] Neil Peart.

Jonathan Fields: [00:39:51] I know.

Brené Brown: [00:39:52] World peace. I think he could bring world peace.

Jonathan Fields: [00:39:54] I think so.

Brené Brown: [00:39:55] Um, but, uh, no, I think this idea that we can go it alone and that I think we need people not only to support us, but I think we need people like to try on vulnerability with, to try it on and say, hey, Jonathan, and I think I want to do this. I did that with Chris going back to WDS. World domination summit. Like the night of rehearsals, I was there.

Jonathan Fields: [00:40:17] I was there.

Brené Brown: [00:40:18] You know, I said, I’m seriously thinking about closing by doing a duet with you from the Glee version of a journey song. And he was like, I know. And his wife was like, yeah, there’s no way he’s ever going to do that. And I’m like, okay. Then I thought, okay, good. I was like, okay. So I just kind of moved away from it. And then I hear him like from the backstage go, but you are writing a book called Daring Greatly. So I was like, are you going to do it or not? And he’s like, I’ll do it if you do it. And but that’s what I mean by trying it on, because there was no doubt I was seriously afraid. I thought it was. I put it at best, 50 over 50 that anyone else would sing along. And I thought, are you going to be okay if it’s just you and me the whole time? And Chris goes, it’s going to be a long song if that happens. And I’m like, well, I’ll tell the guy the AV guys to fade out. But it was a thousand people.

Jonathan Fields: [00:41:08] Uh-hu

Brené Brown: [00:41:09] Standing on their chairs. Yeah, in the aisles playing air guitar. It was fun. And so.

Jonathan Fields: [00:41:13] And it turned into this. An extraordinary moment and a transcendent.

Brené Brown: [00:41:17] It was one of the best moments of my life. Yeah. I mean, it was. And I think.

Jonathan Fields: [00:41:22] I mean, that’s part of the message, right? Is that that’s what you miss out on when you’re not willing to go to that place. It is.

Brené Brown: [00:41:29] And I read it, you know, everyone, you know, because I still get, you know, comments from people that are like, don’t stop believing or suck it, you know? Like, I still get those, but, um, every now and then there’ll be a comment like, that’s the cheesiest thing I’ve ever heard of. And. It doesn’t. I feel total neutrality about that. Not even the need to defend it or anything, because my thought was you weren’t there because it was from people who weren’t there. You didn’t share that with us, and that’s okay. Um, because if you were there, it was fun, you know, and we sang together like we were 13in the back of a car. Stake it out on a Friday night. Yeah. So, um, so. But I think you have to have a tribe to try on that stuff with.

Jonathan Fields: [00:42:17] Yeah, I totally agree. It makes. It’s I it’s almost impossible for a lot of not everybody. I think some people are kind of wired, you know, like I think so. Yeah. But I don’t think that’s most people.

Brené Brown: [00:42:28] I don’t and I you know, I think the other thing that’s important about that tribe that has really shifted in for me in the last year is I no longer really even I have no intake at all of any feedback or criticism from anyone who’s not in the arena. Mhm. So unless you are in your own capacity and your own world and your own life getting your ass kicked on occasion, I’m not interested in what you have to share with me about my work.

Jonathan Fields: [00:42:58] What flipped that switch.

Brené Brown: [00:43:03] A profound respect for myself and other people who are out there trying to do work and trying to walk into uncertainty and vulnerability and are really risking, um, because it is so easy to make a life and a career out of sitting in the bleachers and making fun of people and putting them down. And so I think a profound respect for those of us who are out there. And what I realized, too, in my own life is the people who are doing that, who are in their own arena. I don’t care what it is. You don’t have to be a writer or speaking in public. I don’t care if you’re a teacher, you know, like my sisters are teachers. You know, in my opinion, they walk in the arena every morning at 730, right? Right. And so what I have found, not only as my personal life, but professionally, is the people who are in the arena and who are showing up and letting themselves be seen, give feedback that is far more constructive and far more helpful and mindful about what people can hear and not hear. And I mean, and I love, I mean, I’m an academic at heart, so I love debate and discourse. I love it when people email me and say, I saw your talk.

Brené Brown: [00:44:23] Parts of it I liked. But you were completely remiss in not mentioning these three areas of the literature. How can you talk about vulnerability without quoting so and so about closeness or something? I love that that makes me better. It makes my work better than people who make fun of me, or make fun of other people, or say hateful things. People who say, I feel sorry for your kids. You know, people who say, if I looked like you, I’d embrace imperfection, too, that those kind of comments that you get, you know. I just I hate to get binary because it’s not it’s who I’m trying not to be, but I’m still that person in some ways. And I really do believe you’re either making the world a better place or you’re making it a worse place. I don’t feel like there’s a lot of neutrality, and that’s probably a little hard ass line to take. I don’t want to sound like you’re either with us or against us. Not my favorite quote or, you know, perspective. But I do feel like every day our choices have a huge impact on people. And. Someone told me this could be urban legend.

Brené Brown: [00:45:40] I don’t know, maybe, you know, but I heard that Oprah Winfrey has this quote on her door, but it’s a quote that I love, and it says, you’re responsible for the energy you bring into this room. And I think people are responsible for the energy they put in the world. And a fake avatar and a fake name. And leaving a comment somewhere is not benign. Because I’ll keep putting my work out there. Um, and you will probably keep putting your work out there. And several people we know will probably keep. But there are people who have amazing gifts who could make the world a better place, who won’t put their work out there for that reason. Yeah. You know, um, and that’s a loss. And whether we know what that work was or not, we miss it and grieve it every day. There are songs that we need to hear, their stories that need to be heard. There’s work that needs to be seen. There’s ideas that need to be implemented, um, that will never see or know because there’s so many people out there who are so reflexively cynical and critical and mean spirited. I like it, yeah. Do you like.

Jonathan Fields: [00:46:54] It? You know, it’s something that I deal with every single day in my life. First thing I do when I wake up in the morning is I roll out of bed and I sit and I meditate for 25 minutes, and part of that is because it helps me enter every day with that sense of equanimity, um, and the ability to, when needed, um, zoom the lens out more and look down on myself and and get a better sense for when I’m reacting or responding with deliberation and intelligence. It’s still a really hard thing for me to do because I’m an emotional person. Um, and I and and behind because I operate so much of the time as a writer and behind the veil of anonymity, um, that a lot of people had that you were describing the online world, I get attacked, um, and I just say to him, I’m always thinking to myself, would this person stand in front of me in a room with my kid next to me and say the same thing, right? And and I’ve got to believe that the answer would be no. I want to believe the answer would be no, because I want to have that level of faith in humanity. But, um, sometimes I. But it’s not easy. And I know to your point, I know I’ve had so many conversations with people who do not bring their art and their soul and their heart to the world, um, because they know that there are people out there who will attack them, um, in very, very mean, um, vindictive, spiteful ways.

Jonathan Fields: [00:48:27] And part of I guess my exploration has been to the point that you were making before. I’ve always been fascinated with the phenomenon of people who are even within your close inner circle, your family, your closest friends, either publicly or secretly rallying to see you fail. Yeah. Um, and I think a lot of what so I try and reframe, I try and understand, you know, um, I once heard a, you know, maybe it was something that I read or an interview that I saw with the Dalai Lama, um, where they asked him what his greatest fear was. And his greatest fear was losing compassion for the Chinese. It blew my mind, you know? And I’m just thinking to myself, if if I can, man, if I can try and practice compassion, meditation and compassion on a daily level and in a way that tries to allow me to step in the shoes of that person who is being this way towards me or towards someone I love. Maybe that’s the beginning for me, but it doesn’t make me okay with it. I would love to say it does. I would love to say I just, I’m good, I meditate, I do my mindfulness and I experience it and then I let it go. But but I don’t. I’m human, you know, and it hurts. But I’m far better that than living in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor success.

Brené Brown: [00:49:48] But I think that’s the thing. I think I’ve seen the pain and talked to people about the pain of having the anonymous critic, but also having the family who’s rallying for failure to have the partner who’s just chomping on the bit to say I told you so, to have the children who are looking at you with disappointment, you know. But I don’t think I’ve ever seen the greatest pain I’ve ever seen in my work has is from people who have spent their lives on the outside of the arena wondering what would have what would have happened had I shown up. That’s a pain that to me. Maybe it’s because I’m. I’m 46 has become a far greater fear of mine than having to dodge some, you know, some hurt feelings sometimes. And, um. Yeah. The what? What if I would have shown up and been seen? Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:50:52] And I’m in the same place and same age, by the way, I love it. Yeah. Me too. Um, would you go back for.

Brené Brown: [00:50:58] Love or money?

Jonathan Fields: [00:50:59] One final question. As you wrap this up. So the name of this project is called Good Life Project.. And, um, so when I, when you hear that phrase and or if I ask you the question to you, what does it mean to live a good life? What comes up?

Brené Brown: [00:51:12] Gratitude. Yeah. Yeah. Um. I think for me. A good life is one. A good life happens when you stop and are grateful for the ordinary moments that so many of us just steamroll over to try to find those extraordinary moments. And so, to me, my good life is soccer Her practice and carpool line and tuck ins and date night. And that’s the good life for me. I mean, and and knowing that it’s good and acknowledging and stopping that it’s good and saying, this is good.

Jonathan Fields: [00:52:13] I love.

Brené Brown: [00:52:14] That. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:52:15] Thanks for hanging out. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, Safe bet, you’ll also love the conversation we had with Elizabeth Gilbert about bringing your whole self to your life. You’ll find a link to Liz’s episode in the show. Notes. This episode of Good Life Project. was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and Me. Jonathan Fields Editing help By Alejandro Ramirez. Kristoffer Carter crafted our theme music and special thanks to Shelley Adelle Bliss for her research on this episode. And of course, if you haven’t already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project. in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did. Since you’re still listening here, would you do me a personal favor? A seven second favor and share it? Maybe on social or by text or by email? Even just with one person? Just copy the link from the app you’re using and tell those you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen, then even invite them to talk about what you’ve both discovered. Because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that’s how we all come alive together. Until next time, I’m Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.