How to Get Unstuck, A Scientific Approach | Britt Frank

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Episode Transcript:

Britt Frank: [00:00:00] Stuck is not usually solved externally. Certain things are, you know, we could solve for the job, we can solve for the relationship. But ultimately, if you don’t have an internal connection with all the different aspects of your own mind, you’re going to feel stuck no matter how good things get in the external. And fortunately, we can solve for that too.

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:20] So here’s a bit of a silly question. Have you ever felt stuck in your life? Kind of like there’s a gap between what you say you want and what you actually do day after day? I think we’ve all been there at some point. So how do we break out of these ruts and get unstuck? My guest today, Britt Frank, is here to really help shed some light. So Britt is a licensed neuropsychotherapist and author of the new book, The Getting Unstuck Workbook Practical Tools for Overcoming Fear and Doubt and Moving Forward with Your Life, and with a mix of science and personal experience, she has created a powerful system for understanding why we get stuck and how to move forward. In our conversation, Britt and I explored the underlying causes of feeling stuck. And by the way, it’s not what you might expect. As she explains, stuckness is not a character flaw, but rather a physiological state of shutdown in our brains. By reframing things like procrastination and self-criticism and learning to work with the different parts of ourselves, she offers really eye-opening yet practical advice for getting unstuck. I think you’ll be fascinated to hear Brit’s contrarian perspectives on topics like play, possibility, relationships, and self-compassion. Her message really provides that perfect blend of inspiration and concrete action steps. If you’ve ever felt stuck in any area of your life, this conversation will give you a powerful new understanding and tools to break free. So excited to share this conversation with you! I’m Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.

Jonathan Fields: [00:01:59] I think the experience or the feeling of being stuck, whether in one area of your life or in so many different domains, it’s so common across so many people, and I feel like it’s one of those rare things where so often we use that similar language of of feeling stuck. Also, I think maybe a good starting point for us is really what are we talking about when we talk about feeling stuck?

Britt Frank: [00:02:24] It’s such an important question because like you said, stuck can mean everything from I want to get fit to I am in a war-torn country with no escape, and the work that I focus on assumes the stuck that I address assumes that you have solved for basic needs and safety. So stuck to me is not I am in an inescapable threatening situation. Stuck to me is I have choices and there’s no logical reason why. There’s the mile-long gap between what I say I want and what I find myself doing. Why can’t I do the things that I know would be best for me? That’s the kind of stuck to which my work goes.

Jonathan Fields: [00:03:05] Okay, so you use the phrase I have choices. So I guess the thing that pops into my head immediately is, is that an objective thing or a subjective thing? Like, I mean, does somebody sit there and say like, okay, I’m looking at the universe around me, all of my basic needs are taken care of. And I have like these 3 to 5 different choices, and I’m just not doing something. Or is stuckness also about the fact that maybe objectively we do have choices, but we simply can’t even see them?

Britt Frank: [00:03:32] Mhm. So I think there’s an element of subjectivity and objective fact when it comes to stuckness. But I found in my work as both a recovering hot mess of a human who was addicted to drugs and, you know, but also as a licensed clinician who has sat with people from every single avenue of life, often we think we’re stuck because our brains are in such a state of spin that we can’t even access what our choices are. It’s also sometimes the case that we feel stuck because we don’t like our choices. Like if someone is stuck, let’s just say in a marriage that’s not working, their choices are to stay or to go. And there’s, you know, derivatives of each of those. That person might not like those choices, but those are in fact the choices. And so even being an addict, I’m not saying addiction is a choice, but I had options to choose recovery and I didn’t. I had options to tell someone what was up and I didn’t. And so it’s very rare unless there’s active, objective oppression happening, that it’s very rare that there are no choices. And sometimes to get unstuck, we start with, well, what are the options and how can we get you to a yes? Because stuck turns into unstuck as soon as you start moving in any direction, even a bad direction.

Jonathan Fields: [00:04:50] No, that makes a lot of sense. How do we know? How do we know when we’re in this state? You know, because it seems to me that it might not really be all that clear, especially when you’re in it, like from the inside looking out and.

Britt Frank: [00:05:02] Especially if your life looks good. Oh, that’s interesting. There’s the stuckness of a too good life, right? I have no trauma. Nothing bad is happening. My marriage is fine. I have no reason to be dissatisfied. And yet I can’t sleep. And I feel this itchy, nagging sense of unease all of the time. And so you can actually get stuck in a life that works pretty well by believing you shouldn’t have a right to feel stuck at all. I’ve found that if people allow themselves to know what they know without any judgment, and we drill all the way down that most people will know when they’re stuck. But it’s the I don’t have a right to my stuckness, or I shouldn’t feel stuck because it’s not that bad and other people have it worse. Now. Perspective is useful. Perspective on privilege and access is great, but pain is pain. And just because someone has two broken legs doesn’t mean that you’re one broken leg doesn’t deserve care. So I’m big on. If you gave yourself permission to really go inside and inquire. How you doing in there? How’s the weather inside? Most people know when they’re not okay and when they’re not well, but it’s a shame thing to admit it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:06:10] That’s so interesting, right? Because if if from the outside looking in, like other people are kind of saying, you have everything, you know, like you’ve got the job, you’ve got the relationship, you’ve got the house, you’ve got all the, the quotes stuff. And then from the inside looking out, you’re feeling. But no, I don’t feel the way I thought I would feel and I don’t know how to get from where I am to where, like I imagine I could be, where I would feel differently. Yeah. It’s not just a problem of then like, how do I solve for the feeling that I want? It’s also this shame that you’re talking about that gets layered onto it, because I quote shouldn’t feel this way because I have all the things.

Britt Frank: [00:06:44] Exactly. That’s great that you have all the things, and it’s great that you recognize how good you have it relative to other people. But stuck is not usually solved externally. Certain things are, you know, we could solve for the job. We can solve for the relationship. But ultimately, if you don’t have an internal connection with all the different aspects of your own mind, you’re going to feel stuck no matter how good things get in the external. And fortunately, we can solve for that too.

Jonathan Fields: [00:07:10] Yeah. What is the feeling of being stuck? Because I think stuck feels like a state to me. But when I think about this, because part of what you just described also you’ve got all the things or maybe you don’t have all the things, but like and is there a spectrum of underlying emotion that would, you know, like from melancholy to depression to anxiety to what’s the feeling underlying the state of being stuck or the set of feelings that we might look for?

Britt Frank: [00:07:36] And I love that you named stuckness as a state because it is it’s not a trait. It’s like I’m lazy. I’m unmotivated. That’s not a thing. Stuckness is a physiological state of shutdown. And this is where all the really good brain research that’s been coming out over the last 20 years is really helpful. If you know that your brain has a gas pedal, a brake pedal, and also an emergency brake, and if that emergency brake is engaged, you’re not going anywhere. But if you don’t know that, you’re just going to think the problem is you. So stuckness can be this psychological construct of I think I’m stuck. It could be an emotional I feel stuck, but it’s also physiological. And that’s the fight-flight-freeze thing that most people are familiar with. Now, the freeze response in your brain is a physical state of stuckness that you can’t think your way out of, or affirm your way out of, or journal your way out of a physical problem requires a physical solution.

Jonathan Fields: [00:08:30] Now that makes a lot of sense. Using the metaphor of sort of like the, you know, the brake in the emergency brake. Also, I think we probably all had the experience of getting into the car, you know, like putting it in gear, hitting like pressing on the gas and nothing happened. You’re like, what’s going on? Yeah. And it takes us a beat to, to start to look. Well, wait, what else is all right? Last night I parked on a hill and I, like, pulled the lever or like, hit the button. But often we kind of forget that we have this, this separate emergency system that locks us in place. And I feel like we don’t look for it in the car. And I wonder if the same phenomenon happens just with us as human beings.

Britt Frank: [00:09:05] It absolutely is true. And the thing is, I don’t know, how about for you? I didn’t forget it. I never learned it. I was in my late 20s before I even learned that the £3 lump of gray matter and fat and salt in my head had these mechanisms that were interfering with my mood and my emotions and my decisions and my relationships. So if you never learned how to drive a car, how could you expect yourself to drive a car? But with our brains, we walk around thinking, this should be easy. I shouldn’t feel this way, this should be this. But it’s like if you never got driver’s ed for your brain, of course you’re running into the wall. Of course you’re stuck on the hill. So again, fortunately, to solve the emergency brake problem in a car, you need to know where it is and you need to know how to disengage it. You know, I rented a car recently, and I’m like, where is the emergency brake? It was some random button on the dash instead of the lever I knew I needed to solve by finding it. I just didn’t know where it was. And that often is the case with our emotional stuckness, is you need to know how your brain works in order to shift between the states, rather than just saying, I’m broken, there’s something wrong with me. It must be me. It’s no like this is a mechanism of your brain. It’s not a disorder, even anxiety. We talk about anxiety like it’s this evil thing that comes upon us out of nowhere. But if we’re sticking with the car metaphor, anxiety is the check engine light. The check engine light is not the problem. It’s an indicator light. Because there’s another problem. And that’s what anxiety is.

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:40] Yeah, you don’t have check engine light disorder.

Britt Frank: [00:10:43] No, exactly! It’s insane! But we do that to ourselves every day.

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:47] Yeah, that’s so interesting. I’m just thinking also, the car metaphor is like, it’s just such a convenient one. I’m like, I remember renting a car and actually, like, inadvertently hitting the emergency brake one night and coming back the next day and literally had to go and find the manual because I just couldn’t really quickly eyeball where it was. And I’m flipping through the pages, where is this thing? But I’ve also had the experience years ago where the emergency brake was a bit pulled, not enough to stop me from driving, but as soon as I was driving, I could just tell that I was having to. There was a lot more friction in the car. I was having to push on the gas so much more. And like in within a matter of minutes I started to smell something burning. And I would imagine a similar thing happens with us, right? Because it’s probably not a binary like it’s on or it’s off. Sometimes it’s kind of like in the middle somewhere and we just try and force our way through it. But something’s burning up there in the background.

Britt Frank: [00:11:39] We could take this metaphor and run with it all the way. And the burning smell. We call that burnout, or we call that an anxiety disorder or whatever. But again, I’m not saying that mental illness is not. I go to therapy, I take psych medication. But if you don’t know that these things are working in your brain. On your behalf. The emergency brake isn’t trying to get you, it’s trying to help you. And if you have a different objective than stop and don’t move, it’s going to feel like you’re at odds with the thing, but you’re not fighting your car anymore than you’re fighting your brain. And we learn to treat our brains like our enemy. I fight depression, I battle addiction. It’s like, no, your brain is always on your side.

Jonathan Fields: [00:12:22] Yeah. It’s like, if the only thing that you were ever knew was, you know, like, push harder than, like, that’s the only tool in your toolbox. Eventually it’s going to cause a lot of harm. Um, I’m curious too, because I know a lot of the work that you’ve done over the years also involves trauma in various different ways. You know, like big T trauma and little T trauma. Talk to me about the relationship between this feeling of being stuck and trauma.

Britt Frank: [00:12:45] Um, and the word trauma, especially in the last, I don’t know, 4 or 5 years seems to become the trendy thing. Now. Everything is trauma. I see it everywhere. I see it being used to describe everything from I don’t like your music to I’m in an abusive situation. And so the word has sort of lost what it means. Like most things, I’d rather us be talking too much about trauma than not enough. So I get how we sort of overindexed on it. But trauma, by definition, is when anything exceeds your brain’s processing capacity. So anything that’s too much, too fast, too soon or not enough, I call it just to simplify it. Brain indigestion. It’s like if you eat food faster than your stomach can process it, you’re going to feel bad. Trauma does the same thing. Now, that sounds reductive. And I say this as a childhood and adulthood trauma survivor. I’m not minimizing how painful and scary and horrible it is, but if we’re talking about what trauma is, it’s your brain is actually physiologically getting stuck and it can’t digest or metabolize the experience. And then we experience that indigestion as symptoms, as flashbacks, as uncomfortable body sensations. But trauma and stuckness are pretty closely linked. I called my work the Science of Stuck and not the science of trauma. Because not everyone identifies as having trauma, everyone identifies as getting stuck.

Jonathan Fields: [00:14:11] Mmm, no that makes so much sense. I remember a couple of years back talking to, uh, Bessel van der Kolk, actually, and, and one of the things that has stayed with me is how he was describing. And for those don’t who don’t know, he spent his life sort of like researching and developing treatments around around trauma, especially embodied physicalized treatments. And he was probably the first one that really described to me that so, so often, like one of the signposts of trauma is that whenever the thing happened that a part of you remains stuck in time, like from that moment forward, and unless and until you engage in processing that in some meaningful way, you are stuck in that in that time. And you may not realize it sometimes for decades. And you just keep like, sort of like banging your head against like a thousand different walls and wondering why you’re not moving forward. But that until you actually address the initial thing that you kind of remain in this time capsule, in a weird way, it’s.

Britt Frank: [00:15:05] Well, I mean, you can argue that time is a construct that we invented to help make sense of the world, and time when it comes to trauma doesn’t really exist, which is why people can say it happened 20 years ago, but it feels like it was yesterday. So time is is tricky when it comes to dealing with trauma. And the alarming thing that some people think is, well, does this mean I need to go digging through my history and all that Hollywood nonsense of recovering all of the things I’ve repressed? And the answer is no. Sometimes you don’t ever really get the story. Like sometimes you might not remember what happened that caused the stuckness, or this brain indigestion or this trauma. But fortunately, what we know now is you can still work on digesting and experience even if you don’t have the memory of what happened. Because trauma healing is about connecting with yourself, with your parts, all the different aspects of you. It doesn’t require memory regurgitation, thankfully, because so much trauma is pre-verbal where you don’t have the brain structure to even remember what happened. So fortunately, you don’t need to know your story to heal from it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:16:14] Wow, that’s so interesting. I would imagine that you see, sort of like on the clinical side, people resisting doing anything about it because they’re like, I don’t want to quote, go there like I’ve I feel like I’ve done a good job of compartmentalizing it. I don’t want to open this Pandora’s box, which may be something inside of me is saying could be really big and really scary and have to do like that deep work. And it’s interesting because you’re kind of saying, well, maybe it would be helpful, but there there may be other tools in the toolbox to help you unlock and move forward without doing sort of like that level of what may be really scary work for people.

Britt Frank: [00:16:46] Exactly. Because the bigness of healing trauma is very off-putting to parts of us who are invested in keeping us functional and away from it. Oh no, what will change if I identify this? But. If you think of this like a pool, you can deep dive on one end. But that doesn’t mean that there’s not a shallow end to splash around in if you don’t have the skill set for a safe dive. And sometimes life is too busy and too hectic and legitimately you don’t have the space or the bandwidth to process the pain that you’re about to encounter. And so even if consciously, you know, there’s stuff you need to get to, but you can’t or it’s not smart or safe to you right now, there’s plenty of good work to be done on the shallow side of things, and shallow is not bad. Shallow got equated with bad and deep equated with good. And that’s just a binary that’s not helpful for healing.

Jonathan Fields: [00:17:39] It’s a forgiving lens to take on this work. And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors. When you think about this feeling of being stuck, there are certain people who tend to be experience it more or more deeply or more often. I mean, are there people who are more or less at risk of this experience?

Britt Frank: [00:18:03] I think the same is true for stuckness, as we would say for trauma. You know, depending on your level of resource, your family of origin, your current level of safety, your genetic makeup, your brain chemistry, all of those factors will leave certain people more susceptible to stuckness. Just like that would leave certain people more susceptible to trauma. But I will say often the factors that exacerbate stuckness are systemic and not personal, like the things that we call personal issues often are, like trauma-informed therapists are not available to everyone I was horrified to discover, and a lot of people don’t know this, but you can become licensed as a psychotherapist and never learn about trauma and never learn about the brain. That’s a little concerning, but it’s true. So trauma-informed care is a specialty that not everyone can get to. That’s not a personal failing. That person’s probably going to stay a little stuck because of a systemic issue, not a personal one.

Jonathan Fields: [00:19:04] No, that makes a lot of sense. You have said that many of us were taught to solve for symptoms, when what we really needed to solve for is safety. Take me into that more.

Britt Frank: [00:19:13] That one gets a lot of pushback. What do you mean, solve for safety? I’m fine. Clearly I’m fine. I have a nice house. I have enough food. All of my basic needs are met. Okay, so safety is not always the overt. You’re in a dangerous environment with bad things happening. What? I didn’t know about the brain. I don’t know about you, but our brain has an entire team. I call them the safety team. And their job is to scan the environment every second of the day. And they do it unconsciously, looking for things that feel familiar, smell familiar, look familiar, and not everything is going to trigger the safety team, but anything can. And so if we don’t know that our brains have this automatic scan for safety, shut down the system if it perceives a threat, even if there is no threat, if you got bit by a dog as a child and you kind of flinch every time you see a dog, now logically you can tell yourself, well, that dog’s not my problem. I’m fine. Why is my brain doing this? But your brain has then paired that dog from now with the dangerous dog from the past. And the output is. We are now in danger. Quick, make them flinch or whatever. So again, it helps to know that our brain has this unconscious function of safety scanning. And it’s not rational and it’s not logical. And it will shut us down or poof us up into fight, flight, or freeze at any sign of a real or perceived or historic or future threat. Again, it doesn’t mean you’re stuck that way. It does mean you need to know about these things in order to effectively change them. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:48] I mean, I think having that basic knowledge, it can be so helpful. And it reminds me a lot of Steven Porges. Uh, polyvagal theory and just and I feel like, you know, like so many people, I’m curious whether you here I feel like I’m hearing more and more conversations about, quote, nervous system regulation or dysregulation, which it sounds like that’s sort of like the broader term for some of what we’re talking about.

Britt Frank: [00:21:08] Here it is. And I love Doctor Porges work, and I love that we’re talking about the nervous system. But like most things, this conversation about regulation and dysregulation has turned into nervous system regulation equals calm. And if you’re not calm you’re dysregulated. And that’s just not true. Regulation is not the presence of calmness. Regulation is I can still think clearly, access my choices and make decisions rather than just reacting in high-level emotion or whatever. Fight, flight, freeze, any of that. But you can be regulated and angry. You can be regulated and scared, or you can be regulated and sad. All regulation means is that you are still driving the car instead of locked in the trunk while it barrels down the highway at 90.

Jonathan Fields: [00:21:59] Yeah, that’s such an important distinction that I think gets missed so often because we kind of think, oh, if my nervous system is properly regulated, I’m just kind of like chill all the time.

Britt Frank: [00:22:07] Yeah, If only.

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:08] you know, like nothing bothers me. It all rolls off like, like completely fine. And what you’re saying is like, no, it just means you’re going to feel like the full spectrum of emotions, like from anger to like sadness to loss, all the different things. But you’ll have more of a stronger sense of agency and choice within that context. Is that right? That’s right. Okay. That makes so much more sense. And also goes back to the, you know, the conversation around shame earlier because with all this conversation around safety and nervous system, you know, you kind of think, well, if I’m not that sort of like super chill person, then I’m not doing the work or something’s not wrong with me. Whereas what you’re saying which which again has this opportunity to layer on like, you know, like there’s shame again, like, oh, I should be feeling. Apparently, like, you know, like my nervous system is, like, bonkers right now. It’s like, that’s not good. I’m unhealthy. When in fact you’re saying, no, your nervous system actually might be fine. You’re just feeling what would be an appropriate emotion for the experience.

Britt Frank: [00:23:00] Exactly. Which is also, it can be off-putting. You know, stuckness has a function too, even though it’s bad and we don’t want to be stuck. And I’ll speak for myself. So I’m not attacking anyone personally, just for me. And I’m sure I’m not the only one. If I’m just stuck and there’s nothing I can do, then there’s nothing I need to do. And so stuck becomes kind of a safe place where I can compress all my big feelings that are very distressing and uncomfortable, and I can squish them down and say, well, I’m stuck, and there’s clearly nothing I can do about it. And so this is just who I am, and this is just how it is. And that’s just not true. And so part of getting unstuck requires learning to tolerate the discomfort of emotions and all of those icky body sensations that come along with it. But yeah, to your point, it helps to know just because you’re feeling a giant feeling doesn’t mean you’re dysregulated.

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:54] Mm. No, I think it’s so powerful. You know, all the research around emo diversity, you know, like a good life is actually a life that where you experience the full spectrum of emotion and feeling. And that means like high highs and also loss and grief and all the different things. Um, it’s not when you’re just baseline, you know, like living in the gray, like even though so many people think that that’s, you know, where it should be. But that’s not what it’s about.

Britt Frank: [00:24:16] And that’s not life. 

Jonathan Fields: [00:24:17] No

Britt Frank: [00:24:17] I just wrote a whole thing about biodiversity and why, if you don’t have parasites and all and mosquitoes and the things that we don’t like about nature, if you don’t have those things, the entire ecosystem collapses and our minds are the same. We don’t want these steady-state Zen I feel nothing things. I mean like, yes, meditate, go to yoga, take breaks from life by doing that. But if you don’t have a diverse array of parts, even parts that you don’t particularly care for, your mind isn’t going to work. Just like in nature, we need all of the things to make an ecosystem work. It’s true inside and it’s true outside.

Jonathan Fields: [00:24:55] I know as nature does. Like so should we. We forget that so often. Big topic that comes up in the context of stuckness also is this word that comes loaded with so much judgment, also procrastination. You have a very contrarian view. Take me into your lens on procrastination.

Britt Frank: [00:25:14] That word drives me bananas. And my disclaimer is I am not saying it’s okay to do nothing. My my thing about procrastination being the wrong word and the wrong sentiment is not a hall pass to do nothing but procrastination is this I’m not doing the thing I’m supposed to be doing, so there’s something wrong with me, and now I’m procrastinating. But that’s a shamey moral judgment, not inaccurate neurological reality. What’s happening with procrastination is your brain’s safety team, for whatever reason, it might not be logical is thinking, if I do that thing, something bad will happen. So this organism, this person, is better off being shut down in a freeze state than doing the thing. And that’s what procrastination is. It’s a self-protective adaptation to a perceived threat. Again, people get so like, what are you saying? I’m not answering my email because my brain thinks I’m going to die sometimes. Yeah. Like if there’s no logical reason why you’re not answering the email and you really want to and you know you need to and you just cannot bring yourself to do it, that is because your brain safety team is on board doing their thing. Yes, ADHD, yes, there are neurodivergent things that can account for procrastination, but generally speaking, if you’re not doing the thing you want to do and you don’t know why, it’s safe to default to your brain’s safety mechanisms. And then again, you’re not solving for productivity. You’re solving for safety. It’s not, how do I do the thing? It’s what people, places, or things make me feel safe so that I can downshift into a more productive state.

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:56] Yeah. I mean, that’s so interesting to look at it that way, because so often procrastination comes with a whole lot of both self-judgment and external judgment. You know, like in a work environment, if you’re on a team and they’re X, Y, and Z tasks that are under your responsibility and, you know, a deadline of Friday and you just keep putting it off and putting it off and putting it off, and other people on the team are like, well, have you done it yet? And your leader is like, have you done it yet? You know that not only are you judging yourself from the inside because like, why am I not doing this? Why can’t I do it? But from the outside looking in, there’s a lot of just sort of like cultural judgment around this as well. Like, this is a character flaw. This is not an internal systems process. Like there’s something wrong with this person’s character. So often what comes into the mix?

Britt Frank: [00:27:42] It’s true. And again, I’m not suggesting that you give someone permission to not do their task. Because their brain is in safety mode. You know, we do want to recognize that if you’re on a team and there are expectations, yes, the expectation that you do the thing is important. But if we want to solve the problem, this is true with negotiations with actual people and with inside your mind. We need to separate your parts from the problem. You are not the problem. The problem is the problem. You are a person trying to cope with a problem, and the solution is not analysis or insight for the situation you just described. Why am I procrastinating? It’s not usually the best place to start. A better place to start is how can I break down my next step into something so small? I call them micro yeses. How do you break it down into something so ridiculously small that it’s easier to do it than to argue with myself about doing it? And micro yeses will get you to where you want to go with procrastination a lot further, a lot faster than why am I doing it? Why am I doing it? Why am I doing it? So again, we want to have the outcome, but we have to start by reframing the problem not as a personal one, it’s an external problem and you can solve for that by micro-guessing your way.

Jonathan Fields: [00:28:58] So if we take the example, let’s say of somebody who it’s May and I’m looking towards the summer, and wouldn’t it be awesome if I was able to get into shape to be able to run this local 5K in my community where everybody’s out and it’s a lot of fun and we’re raising money for this cause that I really believe in, but I know I quote, should be out there doing the things, but for some reason every day I’m just not doing them. Walk me through how I might might rethink this.

Britt Frank: [00:29:26] I love that example. As someone who spent many years smoking a pack a day and doing a lot of drugs, I relate to that dilemma. What happens with fitness goals? And this happens every January 1st, like clockwork, everyone tries to take these big giant steps forward. I’m going to run three miles a day, and I’m going to make sure I block out an hour a day to train. But human brains are not wired for fitness. They’re wired for survival. Human brains are not wired for success. They’re wired for survival. So what we have to do is recognize that all change, even healthy change, registers to your brain is threatening because our brains like familiarity. So a micro yes for a fitness goal is not run a mile. It’s not even go for a five-minute walk around the block. It’s put your left shoe by the front door and then go back to the couch. And then tomorrow put your right shoe by the door and then go back to the couch. And then the next day put your left foot in the shoe, then take it out and then go back to the couch. Now people are like, how am I supposed to get anywhere if I’m taking steps this small? And the answer is, you’re going to get where you want to go faster than if you keep doing what you’re doing, which is reach too. Big brain gets overwhelmed. You shut down, you shame yourself. Repeat. Micro yeses are not the pace that you stay at. They’re the pace that you start at. So what we want to do is build up that reservoir of, I can do the thing. I did the thing which then sort of microdoses dopamine, which then produces motivation and that creates an upcycle. So we have to start with steps so small that frankly, they’re infuriating.

Jonathan Fields: [00:31:04] So is part of what’s happening in that situation. Then taking it back to what you said around safety as a core reason why we don’t do things when we’re procrastinating that by sort of, you know, like microdosing action, it’s like we’re de-risking each individual step enough so that our brain is like, oh, it’s really hard for me to like, see this as not safe.

Britt Frank: [00:31:25] Yes. Think of your safety team like a group of firefighters standing on the sidelines watching your every move. And at the first sign of anything dangerous, they’re going to come rushing in and shut it down. If you’re putting your left shoe by the door, your safety team is going to look and go, okay, well that’s fine. Like that’s not going to change anything. But every day that you do that, your system can then tolerate a little bit more. It is it’s microdosing action so that your safety team’s fight flight freeze stays safely off in the off-switch position. And micro steps do that. And they feel silly and they are. But that’s science.

Jonathan Fields: [00:32:01] Yeah. You sort of lay out saying let’s pull this away from like procrastination as a character element and think of it as a system. And you describe what you call the four S’s.

Britt Frank: [00:32:12] I remember the four P’s. What are the S’s?

Jonathan Fields: [00:32:14] Oh Maybe it was the P’s. Actually.

Britt Frank: [00:32:17] I know I wrote that book in 2020, so okay

Jonathan Fields: [00:32:20] let’s go with the four P’s.

Britt Frank: [00:32:20] I think it’s the four P’s. So funny. Okay. So I talk about, you know, the four P’s of procrastination or anxiety or any type of stuckness that we don’t like any problematic habit. It prevents danger. It’s not always logical. But if you don’t do anything, then you don’t have to worry about something happening while you’re doing the thing. It also prevents discomfort if you want to get fit and you haven’t been fit that. First run is going to stink. It’s going to hurt. It’s not going to be pleasant. It also promotes connection. Misery does tend to love company, and so people are very quick to gather around and feel connected in their efforts to overcome a source of stuckness. The loneliest I had ever been was not when I was in my addiction. It was in early sobriety because I had to lose all my friends, because if I was the only one committed to recovery, I couldn’t keep going back to the same places. And so it’s important to know that being stuck does promote connection. It’s not. It’s a suboptimal way that we do that. But it does.

Jonathan Fields: [00:33:26] I mean, it’s so interesting also. Right. Because if one of our sort of primal needs is belonging, and the people with whom we’re finding belonging are people in a similar state, then it means that us essentially voluntarily outcasting ourselves from that sense of belonging in order for us to be in a space where we start to move forward with our lives, which is scary, I mean, really uncomfortable.

Britt Frank: [00:33:50] It’s so uncomfortable. And the last P is that it points towards problems. Now, if you’re procrastinating, it might be because you hate your job. It might be because you’ve neglected your self-care needs. It might be because who knows what. But if you look at it, that can be very confronting. And look, it’s like when the check engine light used to come on in my car when I was in my early 20s and broke, I would put duct tape over it so I didn’t have to look at it. I didn’t want to know that there was a problem. La la la la la. Away from the problem. And it can be scary to look under the hood. But it’s important to know that procrastination specifically has a function. It’s not just this thing that makes you a bad person, it’s doing a job. And if we can figure out what job it’s doing, we can solve for that. Instead of trying to white-knuckle your way through behavior change, which doesn’t usually work.

Jonathan Fields: [00:34:40] Yeah, that makes so much sense. I mean, it can work for a hot minute, I think sometimes. But then it’s like you can revert right back as soon as whatever that short-term motivation goes away and we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors. One of the other things that you really dive into, as well as this notion that in any given person’s head, there’s a dinner table of personalities living there. It’s not just one person. It’s. And I was exposed to this idea to a certain extent through Dick Schwartz and Internal Family Systems, and it was sort of like this light bulb moment for me, like, oh, so take me into this concept.

Britt Frank: [00:35:17] That’s my favorite thing in the entire world to talk about and write about and think about. Because just like if you don’t know that your mind has or that your brain has a gas and a brake pedal and an emergency brake, you’re going to get stuck. If you don’t know that everyone has multiple personalities, you’re going to feel absolutely beside yourself when they all start fighting with each other. And I love Doctor Schwartz’s work on internal family systems because it normalizes multiplicity. It’s not that you have multiple personality disorder, it’s that if and again look to nature, every complex system is made of multiple parts. One tree is made of bark and branches and roots and leaves, but it’s one tree made of parts. Even an atom can be broken down into smaller parts. So if every single thing in nature can be broken down into subparts, why would we think that our minds, which are probably the most complex system I can think of in the known universe, why would we think our mind is this one thing and it’s either healthy or unhealthy, it’s either disordered or it’s normal. Our minds are made of parts, and it’s scary to think of yourself as multiple personalities, but it makes all of the chatter make sense. Because if you’re fighting with yourself, what’s really going on? Like, it’s not that there’s this entity inside you that you’re arguing with who wants you to eat M&Ms instead of going for a run? It’s these are parts of you and they’re all valuable, and they all have messages. And working with them promotes self-compassion, which changes the brain states like, if you want to talk about physically shifting between states, knowing how to work with all the different voices in your head is a really effective way of doing that.

Jonathan Fields: [00:36:56] So the relationship between first accepting that we have these different personalities, kind of like running around in our heads, um, and the feeling of stuckness take me more into that relationship.

Britt Frank: [00:37:08] Yeah. The internal family systems model calls parts stuckness, polarizations. And again, that sounds really scary. All it means is part of you wants to do one thing. Part of you wants to do the opposite thing. Part of me wants to do the good thing, and part of me wants to do the feel-good thing. And those are mutually exclusive. When you have parts that are polarized with each other, it’s really easy to look at. Well, part of me that wants to smoke meth is bad, and the part of me that wants to be sober is good. But if you side with either of your parts, you’re going to create imbalance in the system. So the solution is not the meth part. Smoke meth. It’s I need to understand not what they want to do, but what’s driving these desires. And if you drill down, it’s usually the part of me that wants to do drugs is trying to protect me by avoiding the part of me that wants sobriety, is trying to protect me by dealing with my reality. But self-protection is a mutual goal. And then Jung calls this the third path you want to get to. Not drugs, good drugs, bad sobriety good you want to get to. What’s the third way of thinking about this? And that allows for all of your parts to feel valued.

Jonathan Fields: [00:38:16] So what are some questions or tools that we might start to think about to help us if, like we’ve got we recognize we’ve got the we’ve got these two voices inside of our head. And one was like, I really want to do this and it’s great. It’s healthy, it’s blah, blah, blah. And the other one’s like, nah, not happening. What are some of like the opening moves or questions or prompts or tools that we might start to think about to, to find or explore that third way.

Britt Frank: [00:38:40] Some of the best ways, the most practical way of taking all this esoteric parts, multiplicity, third path thinking, and making it really accessible is to look at the business world like read the book Getting to Yes, things that talk about how to negotiate between two parties. That’s the stuff. So rather than I hate this part of myself for this, it’s invite them all to the table and ask them all questions. That’s the thing about this again, sounds really weird, but we think thoughts all day. We talk to ourselves all day. We tell ourselves stuff all day. I’m suggesting that we just make it more of a dialogue rather than this monologue. I feel this way. I feel this way versus okay, hi. Part of me that wants to do this, tell me what’s going on for you. Like, what would you do if you were running a team? You would have to listen to the concerns of all of the team members. And then as the leader, you make the most informed decision that gets you to the best outcome for everybody. This is the same stuff. So like practically start following Instagram accounts that talk about negotiation. Start reading business books about how to negotiate a conflict. That’s the stuff we’re talking about.

Jonathan Fields: [00:39:49] It’s almost like you can like set a daily meeting on your calendar for yes instead of for your. Internal team for internal team. And like, okay, like, what do we bring to the table today? Let’s talk this through. And then like somebody’s got to make a decision at the end of that.

Britt Frank: [00:40:03] And it doesn’t once you get fluent and you get used to this idea of your parts, you can do parts work very quickly. It doesn’t take a lot of time. So yeah, having a daily business meeting or a weekly meeting with yourself and your team is an incredibly good use of time. It saves a lot of trouble.

Jonathan Fields: [00:40:21] For something like this in particular, because I would imagine, you know, once we get in touch with the different parts of ourselves, that it might get a little bit hard to kind of like, keep track. What’s your take on the value of different types of journaling exercises for sort of like note taking and processing these types of like internal family meetings?

Britt Frank: [00:40:40] I’m a big believer in journaling, and it’s not just I have faith in it, it’s science shows. Journaling is good for our brains and putting pen to paper does. Technology moves way faster than our brains move. Like in my lifetime, I is unlikely to replace my human brain. So knowing that writing things down helps your safety team stay off and your logic team stay on, that makes a good case for why you should write things down. If parts feel overwhelming. I tell people, don’t worry about quote journaling. Just make a list of all the characters. Think of it like you’re a movie director, and every time you encounter a part, jot it down. I have the part of me that’s really snarky and is like a moody 16-year-old, and I have the part of me that’s the I want to do everything and volunteer for everything and get all A’s. I have a part of me that doesn’t care anything at all about any of that. Write them all down and just start to extend curiosity. And curiosity does a lot of jobs on our behalf, the chief of which is it keeps us out of fight. Flight, freeze! You cannot be in a curiosity state and a shutdown state at the same time. So curiosity will keep your physiology in a place where the outcomes you want are more likely to happen.

Jonathan Fields: [00:41:53] And that makes a lot of sense. And as you’re describing it, also, you know, one of the things going through my head is that, you know, if I if I sit here and I make a list of the cast of characters in my head, you know, pretty soon, and like, as I’m writing out that list, you know, the cast list, I’m going to be judging. This is the one I need to get rid of, or I need to kill off during like that, or I need to. And what you’re kind of saying is not really like, okay, so maybe there’s this inner critic that’s really taunting you and teasing you and like, trying to like, but it’s more about okay, so let’s acknowledge the fact that this, this character exists in my head and then maybe and like looking for the value, like, what is it trying to tell me rather than saying I need to kill it because it’s stopping you from doing the things I want to do, like say no, no, no, no. Like it’s here for a reason. Like, what’s the reason? Does that make sense?

Britt Frank: [00:42:40] Yes, that’s exactly right. And if you tell your brain, I have a part of me that I need to kill, your brain is going to take that literally. Because brains are smart, but they’re literal and stupid sometimes. And so if your brain thinks that the enemy is inside it, it will deploy a lot of things to shut that part of you down. And that’s going to be experienced as stuckness. So yeah, with your inner critic, it’s not I hate it, go away. It’s once you have your list, assume that every part has value. And then we want to explore what is the job. Now I have an inner critic too. Everyone has imposters and we all have a full set of characters. But if you can really attend to the fear of the part rather than judging it, then you’ll learn how to collaborate with it. And now, not all the time, but when I’m functioning well and doing all my stuff, my inner critic is more of a coach. Like, okay, that was a great try, but we could do better. But like, this is what we need to do to do better. And I believe in you and you can do it. So like go get some coaching in this area, go uplevel your skills and then we’ll try again. And that works. That’s a lot better than just affirming yourself, because all these self-affirmations don’t allow any room for growth. And most people, me included, could use some up-leveling in certain areas. And so turning your inner critic into a constructive coach is useful.

Jonathan Fields: [00:44:02] Yeah, I can completely see that you offer a really interesting reframe, saying what would you change if you thought of your inner critic as a scared child instead of an angry parent, which I think a lot of people hear that and they oof!

Britt Frank: [00:44:13] Big oof! Yeah. Because like if a little kid says, I hate you, now, a parent who’s under-resourced is going to feel that and take that very personally. But a parent that’s well resourced and able to manage, here’s a toddler say, I hate you and doesn’t freak out about it, goes, okay, that toddler either needs a nap or a snack or a hug. But like, clearly that’s just their way of expressing distress. Our inner voices are often scared little children doing their best, and it’s our job to parent them and love on them. And then everyone works together. And the goal is not eliminate your parts. It’s take care of them so that everyone can work together because they’re all valuable.

Jonathan Fields: [00:44:53] Yeah. And that. Does bring us to one of the other major topics that you explore, which is and you referenced it earlier, the notion of self-compassion. I think a lot of people have heard the phrase compassion, you know, and but it’s often, you know, in the context of how you explore somebody else, self-compassion. Take me more into this. You know, what are we talking about when we’re talking about self-compassion here?

Britt Frank: [00:45:15] Yeah. And the compassion extending to other people. That gets tricky when you’re talking about enabling and giving permission to bad behavior. So compassion doesn’t mean I’m going to tolerate your bad behavior because you had a bad childhood. If we’re talking about internal compassion, the task isn’t self-compassion, which is the word we all use isn’t even really the right word, because self capital S self by definition is the leader, the all-knowing center of this whole thing. What we need is not self-compassion. What we need is part’s compassion and starting to understand the origin of how these parts came to be. It’s really hard to not have compassion on a part once you understand its story. Again, compassion is not a synonym for permission, but compassion puts us in a different physiological state where then we can access helpful solutions much more than beating ourselves up.

Jonathan Fields: [00:46:07] Yeah. What’s the role, then, between self-compassion and facing uncomfortable truths? Facing uncomfortable realities? Um, because I would imagine they like they part of what you’re talking, part of the process of getting unstuck is we’ve also got to kind of take a look at our internal external reality and say like, what’s real here? Like, what do I need to deal with? That’s that’s uncomfortable. It seems like there’s this relationship or dance that has to happen between parts, compassion and also saying, you know, there’s some uncomfortable truths that I need to deal with.

Britt Frank: [00:46:40] Yeah. Parts compassion provides the insulation for confronting your reality. You know, I’ll use myself again as I was confronting some of the things I did in reaction to as a child, what happened to me was not my fault. As an adult, I have to take responsibility for my choices. Having compassion on my parts allowed me to admit to some really, really not great things about my behaviors. Because if you’re going to be faced with a shame storm, like if I admit that I did this and now I’m faced with this shame storm, I’m not going to be able to do it. So the parts compassion provides a little bit of cover so you can feel your consequences. So you can own your reality. So you can deal with these shadowy things about yourself without collapsing in this existential shame ball, because you can’t change yourself by shaming yourself. We’d all be good to go if that were the case. So the change process happens when we can face our reality and own it without beating ourselves up about it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:47:44] Give me a first step into this a question, a tool, a prompt to start to explore that.

Britt Frank: [00:47:49] As far as how to cultivate the parts compassion necessary? 

Jonathan Fields: [00:47:53] Yeah, yeah.

Britt Frank: [00:47:53] Okay, you don’t have to do this with other people. This is about your internal process. Rather than starting with oh my God, I did this thing. I’m so bad. We have to start with not what did you do? We have to start with what happened to you, doctor Bruce Perry, I think, has a book called What Happened to You or something like that. But again, it’s not excusing what you did, but in order to cultivate compassion, we need to understand the behavior’s origin. And so what happened to me is a better-starting place than I did the thing. What’s wrong with me? And that’s a much more useful way to approach it. Not what’s wrong with me, but what’s right about what I did. Like what not what’s good about it, but what about this behavior made sense to my parts and why? And then you can have compassion as you navigate the very unpleasant process of repairing relationships and rebuilding bridges and fixing the things that you broke. I broke a lot of my toys in my process.

Jonathan Fields: [00:48:49] I think a lot of a lot of people have broken a lot of their toys. But, you know, you also just brought up relationships, which is another sort of like core point and focal point of, um, of the work. And a lot of people, I think, get to a point in their lives where they feel stuck in their relationships with different people, whether it’s a partner or a work colleague or like a child or a family member or just a friend, you know, like things are just in in a stasis, which maybe, you know, some of it is really bad and maybe some of it just feels like it’s just kind of on cruise control. And every day it’s just feeling less and less rewarding. But, you know, it seems like stuckness is this thing that creeps into so many different relationships and so many different levels.

Britt Frank: [00:49:31] It’s true. And when it comes to other people, you can’t control them. So if you’re in a relationship that’s less than awesome. And we you know, if you and I were talking, I would say, well, what are your choices here? If they’re not willing to talk and they’re not willing to listen and they’re not willing to change your choice, points are accept this relationship in its current iteration, or leave it or put. In the periphery of your universe instead of the most important one. But you can’t change other people or make them make different choices, which is unfortunate. But with relationships, it’s committing to the what is and what’s available, rather than trying to wish and hope it could be different.

Jonathan Fields: [00:50:11] Mhm. Talk to me about the relationship between feeling stuck in a relationship and boundaries, because I know this is something that comes up so often. It’s something that I think we feel really uncomfortable about for a lot of different reasons as well.

Britt Frank: [00:50:30] Oh, the topic of boundaries. Boundaries are sort of like working out after you haven’t. When you start setting them, you feel like the most terrible person in the whole world. All of your parts are almost guaranteed to freak out, like, we’re going to get in trouble. They’re going to reject us, we’re going to get punished. But it helps to define boundaries because that is another word that’s gotten misused. A boundary is not me telling you what you should do. A boundary is me deciding what my choices are in response to your behavior. So boundary is just a synonym, a fancy one for choice. So if I say to you I don’t take phone calls after eight, don’t call me and you call me at 830. You haven’t broken my boundary. You just didn’t do what I asked you to do. If I pick up the phone after eight, that’s me violating my own boundary. So if my boundaries I don’t take calls after eight, then it’s on me not to answer the phone after eight. And so no one can technically cross a boundary. Like if your boundary is during an argument. You need time alone in your room and your spouse comes barreling through. That’s not them breaking your boundary, that’s them being emotionally abusive. And so knowing can bust a boundary. Except you boundaries are your choices in response to someone else’s behavior. And they’re really scary because sometimes boundaries do eliminate relationships. I remember I was in a relationship where as soon as boundaries became a thing, the relationship collapsed because I was no longer participating in the toxicity of it. And that’s a terrifying reality. But it happens not always, but usually, if the person is not receptive of your boundaries, that is a sign that the relationship is not that awesome to begin with.

Jonathan Fields: [00:52:17] That’s so interesting. It’s almost like there are two parts. One is the establishment of the boundary, and then two is the enforcement of the boundary. It’s like it’s not enough to just say like like like when this is how I want to be treated so that I can feel the way I want to feel. You know, it’s also when somebody goes and steps over that line, it’s then on us to say, this is what I shared, and this matters to me, and I’m going to hold true to it, which is not an easy thing to do. I mean, there’s so much complexity in there.

Britt Frank: [00:52:46] And then people will say, well, why can’t they just not call me after eight? Like, it’s not that hard. Like, why do I have to set the boundary? Why won’t they just do what I want them to do? And I get that because people are people and they don’t always do what we want them to do. And so the boundary enforcement is very much on us. And that’s not fun or pleasant.

Jonathan Fields: [00:53:05] Which brings us to one other topic I want to dip into with you. And it’s this notion of. So one of my favorite words in the world is possibility. And it goes along with this other word play and possibility and player. These two things that you sort of like you dive into in your work. And as adults especially, I feel like so many of us have lost the experience of play in our lives. You know, we’re just like, oh, that’s what you do. And like, that’s what kids do. And as you offer the notion of play and stuckness have this really interesting relationship.

Britt Frank: [00:53:36] Adults who refuse to play will generally find themselves stuck in multiple areas for an extended period of time. Play is a biological imperative, not something reserved for children like animals. And again, if we’re going to look to the natural world for inspiration about how to do these living alive human things animals play. Humans are designed to play play being defined as activity that’s done with no particular objective or purpose, just because it’s fun. So if it’s I must do this painting in order to sell at this gallery opening, that’s not play. That’s cool. You’re being creative, but play is. I’m just throwing around a ball and we’re not counting and we’re not keeping score. A game is different, like games are great, but play just doing things because they’re fun with no objective is so important. And it’s so good for brain health. It’s good for relationship building, it’s good for nervous system regulation. And adults fight pretty hard at this notion of play because we feel dumb, we feel silly doing it. And I go, yeah, it’s going to feel awful until it doesn’t like anything new. If play feels weird and foreign and like we’re doing something we shouldn’t be. But if it was up to me, every corporate place in this country would have a playground. And recess. Mandatory.

Jonathan Fields: [00:54:56] I would love that. That would be amazing. Um, and it is so interesting how we just get out of that in our lives and in our head and, um, especially in, in work lives. And then when we’re put back in a scenario where, you know, corporate team building retreat, oh, there’s this play exercise. And for the first 5 or 10 minutes, a whole bunch of people feel really weird and they’re like, oh, I’m not doing this. I don’t know, can I just sit this one out like, oh, I have a phone call. But then like when you’re actually like, like, no, this is all hands. Everyone has to do it. You feel really weird for the first ten minutes, and then after that it’s the best, you know, like there’s everyone just drops the shields and you’re like, oh, right, this is how I can feel. And it’s amazing. But it’s so often we’re so fearful of being judged if we’re the only ones saying yes to it.

Britt Frank: [00:55:37] with for good reason. Adults are very, very mean and judgy. If, you know, if I went skipping through the park, which I do sometimes I feel that, oh my God, I look like this random lady. I don’t have kids, and I go to the playground by my house and swing on the swings, and people are going to think I’m weird. And yes, they will. And then the answer is, so what? My life’s going to feel better and work better. And I tell people who are super hardcore business people like you’ll generate more revenue. Like play is good for your bottom line. People that play produce. And so if you want a better output and more revenue, then play is going to get that job done in a lot of ways, right.

Jonathan Fields: [00:56:17] With no play, there’s I mean, creativity and innovation kind of don’t exist. Exactly. It’s like stepping into novelty isn’t doing things you’ve never done before. That’s what it’s about. You know, I love this. I love all the different ways that you sort of like approach the notion of stuckness. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation as well. So in this container of Good Life Project., if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?

Britt Frank: [00:56:40] Parts connection. To live a good life is to know and love all your parts. Have access to as many parts as possible while you’re alive to get to know them.

Jonathan Fields: [00:56:49] Mhm. Thank you.

Jonathan Fields: [00:56:52] Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode Safe bet, you’ll also love the conversation we had with Charlie Gilkey about finishing projects that matter. You’ll find a link to Charlie’s episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help By Alejandro Ramirez. Kristoffer Carter crafted our theme music and special thanks to Shelley Adelle for her research on this episode. And of course, if you haven’t already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project. in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did. Since you’re still listening here, would you do me a personal favor, a seven-second favor, and share it? Maybe on social or by text or by email? Even just with one person? Just copy the link from the app you’re using and tell those you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen, then even invite them to talk about what you’ve both discovered. Because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that’s how we all come alive together. Until next time, I’m Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.