Productivity for Mortals With Real Lives | Laura Mae Martin

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Episode Transcript:

Laura Mae Martin: [00:00:00] I don’t like big picture productivity things, so I keep drilling down. How is that going to show its face on my calendar? How is that going to take from my time? Because your calendar doesn’t lie. I’m not going to sit there and time block every single hour of my week and say, I do this here, and I do this here, because that’s just unrealistic with how we work and how we live. So instead of rigid schedules, fluid routines, I try to give a lot of what I call recipes, like the actual small things that you can do that feel good and feel easy and don’t feel like this, you know, restricting, overhaul, rigidness but also leave room for what I’m going to do with that time.

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:42] So have you ever felt like you’re just kind of going through the motions all day, day after day, constantly busy, but not really making progress on what truly matters most to you. Like, at the end of the day, you’ve checked all of these boxes, done a million things, but not much of what really mattered to you got done and all the typical productivity advice. It just feels, well, great for someone living in some utopian universe. But you’re a real life person with all the things spinning around, and it just really doesn’t work for you. Well, if that resonates at all, you are definitely not alone. Imagine if you could find a way to consistently operate at your highest level, accomplishing your most important things while feeling energized and motivated and in complete alignment with your core values. A path to get more of the right things done without sacrificing your well-being or your personal life in the process. Sounds like maybe a little bit of fiction, but it’s real. And my guest today is Laura Mae Martin, the executive productivity advisor at Google, where she has spent 13 years coaching top executives on optimizing their time and energy. She sends out a wildly popular weekly productivity newsletter read by over 50,000 Google employees. And in her new book, uptime A Practical Guide to Personal Productivity and Wellbeing, she shares just this refreshingly balanced approach to achieving this while also living in the real world. What you’re about to hear is a whole lot of myth busting, practical insights and tips to integrate productive output with space for creative thinking and rejuvenation and family and complexity, and realigning your daily actions with your most meaningful intentions, and actually owning the complicated, messy reality of your life. At the same time, this isn’t about cramming more into each day through brute force. It’s a far more suitable and sustainable path of working with your natural cycles, minimizing distractions, and using routines to create an integrated lifestyle where you show up feeling energized and purposeful across all areas of life. So get ready to take some notes because this conversation is packed with immediately actionable wisdom to really help you operate at your highest level. So excited to share this conversation with you! I’m Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.

Jonathan Fields: [00:03:08] Productivity has become I feel like a buzzword. It has been a hot topic of conversation in business, in personal life. It’s sort of like as the world seems to collapse into itself and like we feel like there’s more and more and more piling on and piling on, piling on. People are like, how do we actually survive? You know, let alone. And then the next thing is, how do I thrive? Can I actually feel good in this world and a work life and a home life and a personal life that feels like it’s just a bit calamitous, and there’s certainly no shortage of takes on how to do that? Well. So I’m really curious from from your standpoint, what are we getting wrong about productivity these days?

Laura Mae Martin: [00:03:48] I think the big focus for a while has been on just how much can we churn out? How much can we produce? How much can we accomplish? And so I start the book by talking about one of the most productive days I’ve ever had. And it was a day when I watched television the whole day. And of course, that surprises people because that’s not what we think of as productivity. But if my goal was to relax, enjoy a show that I wanted to catch up on, and I made the time for that and I did it well, then my intention matched my action, and that was in turn productive. And I’m probably going to produce more results on Monday from taking a day to fully relax. And so I think a lot of people ask me, well, how do you balance productivity and well-being? But the reason I think my book and my thoughts around it are different is that by being productive, you have more time for well-being, which makes you more productive. So it’s not actually a balance, meaning that they’re separate. They’re on two sides of the scale that you’re constantly teetering. It’s really that by making that time to go on a run, you have better ideas that contribute to better performance, that give you more time to prioritize the run. And so, you know, having that full circle holistic view is really important. And I think some people think of it as I really need to fit in. I really need to schedule in that wellbeing and try to make it two separate things.

Jonathan Fields: [00:05:09] Yeah. I mean, that’s so interesting, right? Because it does seem like a lot of the talk around productivity is, is that wellbeing and getting things done? Are these two opposing forces? Exactly. And the thing that often suffers is wellbeing. Or if somebody prioritizes that they’re like, well, I’m just not going to be as productive, you know, because I’ve got to take care of myself. It matters to me. Maybe something happens, so I’m okay sacrificing the productivity. And what you’re saying is like, no, this is actually more of a yes end than an either or.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:05:36] Exactly. And I think we also think of ourselves as like work self and personal self, you know, in a similar fashion where we’re trying to balance. But the point is, if you are functioning at this level and what I call uptime in this way of understanding. Okay, I’m doing the right things at the right time, in the right way, and making time for myself. Then you blend productivity and wellbeing, but you also are operating at your best personally and professionally. It’s not. Oh, I have to take away from one. It’s just I’m in this zone where I know what me as one person, one pi of time, one set of priorities needs to do in order to feel good about what I’m accomplishing.

Jonathan Fields: [00:06:13] No, I mean, that resonates really a lot with me, and probably why I’ve struggled with a lot of the productivity pop culture that’s been around for a long time. I feel like this exploration for you is also like, yes, you’ve been at Google for, I think, 13, 14 years at this point. You’ve been internal in different roles now in a coaching function. So there’s a clear application there, but it feels like diving into the book and sort of like learning a bit more just about you and your life, that this is also really personal for you.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:06:39] Yes, exactly. I talk about a lot in the book and in my bio that I have three kids, one on the way actually, so four total but five, three and one. And so a lot of people say oh well how are you productive. You also have all these things going on personally. And I talk about how again, because I have these strategies, whether it’s theming my days at work and understanding this is going to be my administrative day, this is going to be my big picture thinking day. I’m also that way about meal planning dinner. We’re going to do Meatless Monday. We’re going to do new Recipe Tuesday, you know, so the tactics are the same. And I actually had to sharpen my time management and productivity. When you add all these additional responsibilities outside of work on because the time doesn’t just show up anymore. If I want to have a nice morning routine with meditation and focus, that’s only going to happen if I’m really intentional about it. And so I think it actually makes you more focused on I have to have these systems and their for both work and home, and I’m really in the weeds of both, which is what I try to get across in the book, because I think a lot of people are.

Jonathan Fields: [00:07:46] Yeah. And I want to dive into some of those, like the strategies, the tools, the systems. But before we get there, somebody might be listening to this and thinking, okay, so I would love to be more productive, but the idea of sort of like building a life of rules and systems and it feels so rigid, like so structured, almost brittle, you know, like I would rather fall off the productivity wagon and have the freedom to just live the way I want to live and be the way I want to be. What do you say to folks who sort of like, say that?

Laura Mae Martin: [00:08:17] Yeah, I didn’t even really want the the word productivity to be in the title because I think people kind of hear that and they just think like, oh, you know, like I don’t have the time for that or I don’t want to deal with that because it’s so much discipline and all these things. And so a lot of what I talk about in the book instead of rigid schedules is fluid routines. And so things where it’s even like, hey, I’m not going to sit there and time block every single hour of my week and say, I do this here and I do this here, because that’s just unrealistic with how we work and how we live. And so instead could I just say, hey, I work my best in what I call power hours. I know I do my best focused work between 9 and 11. Could I just block that one two days a week? Could I try to make that just a scheduling change instead of every day I do this? Just Wednesdays 9 to 11 is my focus. Time to really dive into work that I need to do for the week, and so that one small change doesn’t feel like an overhaul or like, you know, super rigid. It feels like, hey, I took control of this one block of time.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:09:21] And actually now I’m seeing a big difference in how much I get done. And now I might add Thursday if I can swing it with my schedule. So I try to give a lot of those what I call recipes, like the actual small things that you can do that feel good and feel easy and don’t feel like this, you know, restricting, overhaul, All rigidness, but also leave room for, you know, what I’m going to do with that time. So one of the examples I talk about is I have a morning Laura 30, I call it before anyone wakes up. I just have 30 minutes to myself so that in it is self is rigid, but I don’t plan what I’m going to do at that time. Sometimes I wake up and just sit there and drink coffee in silence, which with three young kids is a privilege of its own. Sometimes I’m reading a good book and I read that. Sometimes I use that time to work out, sometimes I meditate, sometimes I play piano, you know, whatever I’m in the mood for that day. So that’s an example of having that structure but still leaving room for spontaneity. What am I in the mood for right now?

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:23] Yeah, I love that you use the phrase fluid routines, which I was like, ooh, that actually feels better to me.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:10:30] Yes. Less resistance. Right?

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:32] There’s something there. But having the word fluid there, it’s like, okay, so that allows me to kind of like wiggle around a little bit and create a little bit of creativity in there and not feel like it’s so boxed in, which I think is a lot of the resistance that people hear when they sort of like look at different strategies. Let’s dive into a couple of these ideas, and you start out actually by talking about something that I’ve heard different takes on, sort of identifying your top three priorities. Take me more into what you actually mean by top three priorities. And then the big question is like, how? How do we actually figure this out? Because if we’ve got like a thousand things coming at us and personal and professional all day, how do we even begin the process of figuring out like, what are the three things that matter most?

Laura Mae Martin: [00:11:13] Yeah, I think that’s that’s a great question, because when I do my coaching, I always start with that, and it gives me a good sense of how much has this person really sat down and thought through. These are the big things I care about. And, you know, the reason that there’s three is because you can have a lot of things going on, and you can have a lot of things that you care about, but your time is only finite. And so by choosing three things, it’s the rocks, jar sand example, where you have to place those big rocks in first and say, these are the things I really care about. These are the things I want to make time for, so that when there’s other things that are more like pebbles and sand. So commitments come through your email and say, hey, would you like to join this project? You know, I’m really starting to think, well, that wasn’t one of the top three priorities that I have right now. Instead of goals, priority indicates more of that present tense. Like, what are the things I’m focused on right now? And so it helps you define those things and say, you know what, I’d really like to have 4 or 5 big things, but realistically that’s not possible. And so by having that definition of these are the top three things I care about and not top three personal and top three work.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:12:17] You know, top three. If I’m moving my family across the country, that just became a top three priority for the next three months, and that means something from work is maybe going to have to suffer. If I took on a new project at work, that’s one of my biggest priorities. That means something else might get bumped. And so by having that trade off mindset, that’s really the goal of choosing those top three priorities I talk about in the book. One time I was particularly overwhelmed, and my husband being kind of cheeky was like, well, what are your top three priorities? And I listed like six things. And you know, that’s the reason that I was feeling so overwhelmed is I thought that I could focus on six things at once. And just that one question really focused me in, you know what I got to I got to table this for another time. It’s not something I can handle right now. And you just start to whittle it down. So it’s just that way of having a laser focus on these are the big things that matter for me. The other things will have space to fill in. But I have this lens now when things come my way. Is this something I said that I was focused on as one of my big, big rocks in my jar?

Jonathan Fields: [00:13:14] So you just gave a really interesting example as one of them. You’re like, if you’re moving your family across country, that’s going to be a top three thing for the next three months. Which brings up the question of time horizon when we’re talking about this. Like, are we talking about a top three thing today, this week, this month, this quarter, this year when we’re making that decision.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:13:32] I find that typically every three months is a good time to evaluate. Of course, if something big comes up that’s unexpected, you might want to reshift. What if something now has become a top three priority? It’s always a good time to reevaluate. But in general, I find that some of the top executives I’ve worked with who use this mentality are reevaluating those things on a quarterly basis. So, you know, every three months or so it’s a good time to say, hey, they’re actually still the same as they were, or now this is a good time to say no, this is no longer one of my top priorities. And that’s why it’s important to both define and communicate those things as they change, whether it’s to a spouse, a manager, or to your team. Because the only thing people know is what they last heard you say you’re focusing on. So if you as an executive have shifted your priorities, it’s good to communicate that so people know, oh, now this person cares about this and I need to be focused like that when I ask them for things.

Jonathan Fields: [00:14:26] If we say, you know, let’s figure out our top three for this quarter for the next three months on a day to day basis when you’re sort of like figuring out like, what do I actually do today? How do those top three guide us? Because other stuff is going to come like flooding towards us on any given day within that three month window, or like, okay, I know this for this quarter, my top three priorities are, you know, like, I want to train for a 10-K, I want to do this at work, and I want to be more present in this person’s life on a day to day basis. When you’re like, okay, so I said, these are my top three priorities. But now they’re like nine other like people and things that want to fit into this day. How do we do that? That dance?

Laura Mae Martin: [00:15:06] Yes. Great question. You’re like exactly falling down the funnel of how I talk about it in the book, because I don’t like big picture productivity, things like choose your top priorities. So I keep drilling down. So you said train for a 10-K. The next question is what? How is that going to show its face on my calendar? How is that going to take from my time? So train for a 10-K seems broad run ten hours a week now is very specific. Now I have some data around what that looks like. Same for work goals. If I’m saying reorg my team this quarter, that’s really big. So then I push people to say, well what does that look like? That may be a meeting with my HR person two times a week. Skip level meetings, interviews to understand what other teams are doing, you know, whatever that is. Really. Now we have a good grasp on how much time that should take up in your schedule, and then you can prioritize that way. And one thing I like to do is secretly print the calendar of someone I’m working with for the past three weeks, and then we actually take a highlighter to their calendar and say, hey, you said these were your three priorities. Let’s put it to the test because your calendar doesn’t lie. What have you been spending your time on? And that’s a really eye opening exercise for the past to say, wow, all these things.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:16:21] You know, I’m in an all day offsite for some small committee I’m on. That was a big chunk of time that was not on things I said I was prioritizing. And so that can be insightful when you’re looking past, but looking forward, you now have in your mind. All right. I’ve got ten hours a week on this training. Now I have X on this priority, and it really starts to form up your calendar in a physical way so that you do have an idea of, you know, the next chapter is how to say no. So the things that do come up, you know, how to make sure that you’ve set those boundaries for your priorities, and you feel more convicted to say, I actually do not have time for that. So I give, you know, five ways to say no, no, because no. But so lots of different actual sentences that you can copy and paste when people ask for your time. But you know that future you, which is a big concept I talk about in the book setting up Future You for having time to do those things and having time for those priorities. So taking care of future you when that request comes in. As much as I want to say yes, I know future me is going to be happy. I said no because I’ll be able to focus more on those things I said I really care about.

Jonathan Fields: [00:17:28] Yeah, and I love that you get really granular with scripts around things like that, because I think that’s one of the things people struggle with so much is saying no. And oftentimes we think, well, well, that’s in a work context. You know, like my boss wants me to do this thing. I’m young in the company. How can I say no? But I think it actually comes up equally, if not more, with personal, you know, that you’re a part of a group or a club or a community member, you know, locally and you feel like, well, like, this is where my personal devotion really is, and I don’t want to let those people down. So it’s not just a work thing, like saying no to personal things, to personal relationships, I think is probably maybe even harder.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:18:06] Definitely. Whether it’s, you know, dinner at your mother in law’s house every week or whatever that is. You know, I have that as an example as well. But I was a recovering say yes, or I had a really hard time saying no. I don’t believe that no is a complete sentence. I feel like, especially in a personal sense, that starts to ruffle feathers and that can limit your social capital. If you’re just the person who says no, period all the time. And so I really had to come up for myself ways that saying no felt good. So, you know, no, because with some vulnerability. And I think that to your point, I’ve used them both at work. But hey, I can’t join this book club as much as I want to because I know future me is not going to want to do that every other week. And so how do I still maintain friendships with those people without joining the book club? And I needed exact sentences for that. And I do talk about if you are young at a company and how to basically get your manager on board with saying no with you. So, hey, here are the five projects I have. Or here are the ten meetings a week. What would you cut if you were me so that I could prioritize the company’s time? Well, and the time for people on your team and every manager is going to appreciate that you’re being thoughtful about that trade off and say no with you, which is a helpful option.

Jonathan Fields: [00:19:17] Yeah, I love that. I wish I had known some of this in a very, very past life. I was a young lawyer and a giant firm in New York City, and I was working for two different partners, completely different deals and stuff like this, and they didn’t really communicate what they were doing with each other. I was young in the firm. I was trying to prove myself, and I was like, I don’t have the ability to say no to either of these people. And I ended up working probably 100 hour weeks until everything fell apart, until basically my health ended up being completely destroyed, which I think is what happens so much. We’re like, oh, we have to say yes, yes, yes, something’s got to give somewhere, you know, like you can’t actually it’s not a sustainable thing. I love this sort of like the idea of like really thinking this through along the way rather than just saying yes, yes, yes and then imploding and then having to rebuild from the ground up. And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Talk to me more about the concept of future you, because like you said, this does weed through a lot of your work. And I think it’s really interesting to sort of have this future facing Orientation rather than just in the moment with so many of us get trapped in. We’re just like, I just need to get through this day.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:20:25] Yes. And I think that a lot of people have told me, oh, just this one concept from your book. You know, just this one thing has really changed my life. And I think when you realize that it’s not your fault because there’s an actual psychological disconnect between our current self and our future self, that is how we’re set up. And so if I’m trying on clothes at the store, I might think I don’t love it now, but I might wear it later. For some reason, I don’t realize that I’m going to be the same person wearing the same clothes later and think the same thing. You know, we just I’m going to schedule this 8 a.m. meeting Monday morning after I get back from vacation. We just schedule it because we’re distant from that person. But 740 5AMAM us is like, why did you do this to me? And so I think that when we constantly have that question in our head of what will future me wish that I had done right now, what will feature me, wish I had said yes to, said no to? You know when I’m asked to do a speaking engagement and fly out, I actually physically close my eyes and think about, okay, it’s that Wednesday me, you know? I look at my schedule Monday and Tuesday.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:21:29] How am I feeling after those two days? I get on the plane, you know, I come back Friday and maybe it’s I feel like I’ll be okay doing it. But I know when I get back Friday, I’m going to need to have a blank day with no meetings. So then I go ahead and block that. So the more that you find yourself being able to connect with your future self, and then that Friday morning me is like, yes, this, you know, blank day. That’s exactly what I needed. You know, the more that you do that, it starts to become a cycle of you just trusting that you’re setting your future self up for exactly what you need. That hour of prep time before a meeting, you know, that time to work before a big presentation. Whatever it is, you start to think that way, and it just creates that constant positive flow between yourself and your future self. And that’s part of, you know, achieving that sense of productivity and well-being.

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:15] Yeah, I love that because it builds in the space for not just the thing, but whatever. You need the space to support the thing too. Like you said, again, I speak as well. And if I’m on a plane speaking on a Wednesday, I’ll generally schedule at least half of the following. Well, half the next day for travel and then. But I need recovery time from that also. Right. You know, I need catch up and recovery time. And if I don’t get that, then I just hit the ground thinking I’ll hit the ground running, but I’m actually hitting like hitting the ground crawling because I’m just trying to, like, scratch my way back up to being okay. So I love the concept of just sort of like continually projecting out into future you and sort of like asking that question about like what you think you’ll need or do or feel in that state and let that and that inform your your today decision. Super helpful. One of the things you talk about also is this idea of figuring out when in your day, it makes most sense to do certain things and certain things. I feel like we have control over that. You know, like if you’ve got three kids, right? Like, there’s going to be a certain rhythm with the kids where there are certain needs that we have to kind of work around. But we do have control over other ways that we spend our day. And and for sure, I think a lot of people probably have keyed in on, oh, I’m, I’m better at this type of thing somewhere around this part of the day. So take me into figuring that out more and actually why it really matters.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:23:40] Yes, that’s exactly I think people have gotten to that point where they might say, oh, I find that I focus better in the morning or I’m not a morning person. So some of those general statements about their natural flows that have to do with circadian rhythms, and there’s just things, you know about yourself. And so the real part that makes that helpful in planning your workday and your life is saying, what types of work can I do at what time so that I’m producing my best work, because not all time slots are created equal. And if I know that, I do my best focused work in the morning, normally between 9 and 12, and I’m in meetings every morning between 9 and 12, and I schedule 3 to 5 p.m., which is also a two hour block. It’s going to be totally different work coming out of those two slots. Totally different energy, totally different creativity. And so the point is, just having that knowledge about yourself and saying, what are the two hours when I do my best work during the day? Can I block those again, maybe just 1 to 2 days a week. But then more importantly, what do I do with the times that I feel lower energy? And so research shows that you’re actually more creative during lower energy times because energy is coming in bursts. And so that is a good time to take a walk, to do a brainstorm meeting. You know, I know that if somebody asked me to do a coffee chat, I’m not going to use 9 to 11 a.m. to do a low energy catch up mentoring chat, because that was my heavy hitter time, my ROI on that time in the morning is way better than the afternoon.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:25:13] So that’s my chance to say, hey, I do coffee chats in the afternoons anytime after three. Feel free to add that. And so we want to think of our time, same as our bank accounts. We want to write specific checks for when people can, you know exactly how much time, exactly how much money when. So when somebody says, I’d love to meet with you, you don’t just want to say, grab time on my calendar. That would be like, here’s my routing number. And so we want to have these times where we know we do our best work, block those wherever possible. And you brought up the kids thing. I actually noticed that with my kids. I noticed that my daughter doesn’t like reading books at night. She’s just not in the mood to do that. And so she wakes up early and we read books in the morning before she gets ready for school, and she’s just in a reading mood then. So you might notice same things about your children. They don’t like doing homework the minute they get home from school because they’re just not in that mood. But one of your other children might they might come home and right away be focused. And so learning those things about ourselves and then playing to them. I think that one thing can be such a huge change in how we feel when we sit down to do work, because so many people feel that sense of, ah, and it’s like, that’s not the right time to do that work.

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:26] I think we’ve probably all felt that. And it’s funny because as you’re describing that, you know, I’m a writer and so much of what you’re told is that you should get up in the morning and do your writing at like between 4:30 a.m. and 7 a.m. or five in the or like 7 a.m. like before you do anything else, just like sit down and like that is the best time for writing. And I tried that for years. Like I would block it into my schedule and I’m just like, it’s not happening. And then at the time of day where the mythology is like, don’t even bother trying to be creative. Like, don’t even try to write, which is generally like for, you know, 3 to 6. That’s actually when I do my best writing. So which is when I was always told, like, yeah, just go for a walk, do something else. Like your brain kind of shuts down then this is not, quote, productive time. And I just started running experiments. I’m like, actually, if I go to my local cafe and I sit down and like the words flow so much faster and better and easier than if I followed the standard prescription of like, do it in the morning because that’s when writing happens best. Which brings up the question like, how do we really figure out, like there’s so much mythology around, like this is the best time to do this type of thing. How do we figure out what’s really best for us? Is it just a matter of running experiments?

Laura Mae Martin: [00:27:39] I think the main point is there is no one size fits all for anything. And so knowing that because it’s so different, I do know writers that work the way you’re talking and write first thing in the morning, but the first thing I ask people is if you had a full day of absolutely no interruptions or commitments tomorrow and you had to do these three types of tasks, when would you naturally slot them? And so that can give you some. Oh, you know, I probably wouldn’t work up, wake up first thing and read. You know, I like to ease into my morning so that can just give you start to give you some structure. But the launch and iterate approach is by far the best. I actually use that myself. I thought for sure I would write better in the morning. I blocked all this time in the mornings to write. I felt in the wrong mood to write. Even after a few weeks I could tell that. And so I swapped just outlining in the morning and then writing in the afternoon, and just could immediately tell the results are better. So I think sticking with something because it’s what you’ve always done or what you’ve heard people do, is never the way to really find the sweet spot. It’s saying, I’m going to test couple one week this way, one week this way, and see and then, you know, go from there. And so I think that you have some starting points, which I’m not a morning person. I find myself wanting to do this at this time. That can be a good place. You can also just keep a little journal at your desk. And whenever you’re feeling that, oh, I’m in the zone, I’m doing it right. A little note. What were you doing? What time was it? What were the conditions? And you’ll start to see even after a week or two. These are some of the patterns I can find about myself. And now I can ride out those patterns as much as I can.

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:13] Now, I love that. It’s interesting that you sort of like said you experimented with that too. I often hike really early in the morning, and I try not to use tech while I’m out in the mountains, but I have found that I have an app where I can just speak into it and transcribe it, and then sends me the note afterwards that I’ll be hiking and be like, ooh, the process of just being out in nature, like there’s just some juicy ideas coming to me, and I just want to kind of capture them. They’re not fully formed. So the morning for me tends to be really good idea capture time, but it’s not idea. Sort of like fleshing out time. And developing time like that tends to be later in the afternoon. So even realizing that they didn’t actually have to happen at the same time was kind of like this. Aha! For me, I’m like, oh, okay. This thing that people say all happens at the same time. Maybe not for me. And that’s okay.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:30:02] Yeah, I love that you’re right on track because people say, oh, you wrote your whole book at your desk. I say, no, I wrote it on stroller walks.

Jonathan Fields: [00:30:09] Right, right. 

Laura Mae Martin: [00:30:10] Because that is when my best ideas came. And that’s why I do talk very heavily in the book about capture, because if you’re not bridging that gap between I’m on a hike. Ps that was you prioritizing downtime and well-being, but still being at your most productive. So I’m on that hike, I’m on that run. I’m on a drive. I’m in the shower. Wherever you’re coming up with these best ideas, it’s not in your 10th meeting of the day and it’s not knee deep in your email. So making that brain space. But then when the ideas come, having that surefire way that you can trust of getting them out of your brain into a place where then you can process them later on in what I call the close part of the five CS. And that’s the magic. That’s the way that you get that full circle. I’m having ideas. I’m creating space for myself. I’m executing on the ideas, I’m coming up with more ideas. You know, it’s that full loop of productivity.

Jonathan Fields: [00:31:03] Yeah, it’s interesting because the more we’re talking, also, the more I’m really understanding that phrase that you used earlier fluid routines. It’s really about making it about you and what you need and not necessarily, you know, some just generalized prescription because there is no universal thing that is appropriate for everybody. One of the things that tends to come up whenever you talk about ideas of, you know, like trying to get what you want done or the biggest priority things done is this notion of procrastination. And it’s funny because I remember Adam Grant sharing a little while back some, some research on procrastination where it’s like, not necessarily a bad thing, actually. So take me into your take on procrastination.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:31:43] I always talk about the first piece of procrastination is many times that energy piece. So if you find yourself scheduling early morning writing sessions and then not wanting to write during that time and continuing to push it off. You know, the first question should be like, is this the right time for me to do this task? So what is the perfect time for me to do this task? Am I trying to do it at that time? If not, that could be the biggest problem with why I’m procrastinating. And so that’s usually the starting point. But then at the end of the day, there is going to be times where we just don’t want to do something. And so one hack that I use and I teach, and I found really helpful, is separating out the doing of something with the preparing of it. And so our brains really like a prepared environment. It’s the reason that we appreciate a charcuterie board so much. More than a couple of bags of cheese thrown around. You know, it’s we like the presentation. And so if there’s something that you’ve been meaning to do, if you tell, I call it acting like my assistant, say, if I had an assistant on this, what would I ask them to set up for me before I do it? And so I give the example in the book that I had this unpainted planter on my patio, and I just kept sitting out there every day thinking, I need to paint that.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:32:59] I mean, six months just kept doing it. Thought about it every day because I’m that type of person who’s going to notice it, but I just didn’t know why I wasn’t doing it. So I said, what would I ask an assistant to do? So one day I just got out the paint, just set out newspaper and a paintbrush and left it there. And that was it. The next day I came and sat down and said, oh yeah, I have ten minutes. Started painting it. So all it took for six months of putting that off was splitting it up into different tasks. And at work I do the same thing. I say, I don’t have to make this presentation right now. I’m just going to open it and name it, because that’s what I would ask my assistant to do. But then when I sit down at my desk with a fully named presentation already open, I’m way more likely to kick it into gear. So I think I give five or so little hacks, brain hacks like that, in order to say yes, this is something I need to do, but why does my brain keep putting it off? And what can I do to make it easier for me to get over that little hump of getting started?

Jonathan Fields: [00:33:57] Yeah. Do you feel like beyond the sort of like the practical, granular hacks to do these little things, chunking it down, splitting up the different pieces of it? Do you think there’s value in ever exploring, like, is there something deeper going on here that’s stopping me? Like over and over and over?

Laura Mae Martin: [00:34:15] Yes, I talk about that at the beginning again. I don’t like productivity books that are too big picture, because at the end of the day, there are some things you just have to get done and you need things to do them. So that’s why I included the hacks. But the energy piece in addition to why do I keep procrastinating on this? So if I keep writing it on my to do list but not doing it, does that mean it shouldn’t be on my to do list in the first place? Asking some of those questions. What would happen if I never did it? Why am I not doing this? So I talk about there’s seven reasons typically that we procrastinate. Something’s boring, something’s unimportant. And so just by diving into what is actually causing me to procrastinate on this can tell you. Maybe it’s something that you shouldn’t do, and that’s a good way to get it off your list. Or maybe it’s something that you don’t know how to do, and that’s why you’re procrastinating it and maybe getting help doing it. Something like your taxes is the right step forward. And so I think there’s always value to why am I procrastinating? Is it the energy that I’m in? Is it the task itself and its value to me? And if I come to the point of saying no, I actually do need to do this and I have a deadline, then what can I actually do to push through and get it done?

Jonathan Fields: [00:35:26] Yeah. Do you feel like having an external source of accountability is or isn’t valuable when it comes to procrastination?

Laura Mae Martin: [00:35:35] I think it’s again, one of those personal things for me. It certainly is. I’ve found myself now knowing that about myself. And so when I need to build a presentation, I’ll schedule a meeting with someone to review the presentation before I’ve even started it, because I know that that meeting will embarrass me if I don’t have the presentation done, but for some people, that might not motivate them. And so I think that it’s learning those things about yourself and saying, oh, I am embarrassed to tell someone that I didn’t do the daily run if we’re training together for a 10-K. Some people, you know, I do a lot of challenges across Google with accountability buddies and reading goals, and it’s really mixed. Whether people say, oh yes, having an accountability buddy or having accountability on my team made me achieve the goal. Or some people are like, this person on my team didn’t care about our team goal and, you know, just didn’t read. And so I think it’s one of those things, you know, about yourself and then you can use your advantage. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:36:30] No, that makes so much sense to me as you’re describing that. What also came up is Gretchen Rubin’s an old friend of mine and her book, The Four Tendencies, which is about how we meet our own expectations. We each have these like we’re one of four types of people around how we meet our expectations. I found just super valuable in trying to understand setting up accountability, like she’s somebody who read a book that explains or like the health of carbohydrates and stuff like this. And she’s like, okay, I’m convinced the science feels good to me. I’m not eating carbs anymore and just stopped. And she’s good, you know, because her type is like, if she got it, she understood it. She’s. Whereas me, I’m like, no, I need to really like go deeper and understand this and question everything.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:37:10] I was going to say, you sound like my husband and he was also a lawyer, so it must be a trait.

Jonathan Fields: [00:37:16] Maybe it was something about that. And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

Jonathan Fields: [00:37:24] We also talked a little bit, and I want to I want to drop back into this about place getting things done and the relationship to place. And as I shared, kind of offhandedly, oftentimes when I write, I’ve noticed that even though I have a great office and I feel really comfortable here, and it’s set up with everything that I need, when I really want to just drop into like a really good writing zone often go somewhere, and generally it’s a cafe with people around me and noise and stuff like that. And for some reason I don’t know why I can just drop into a zone so much better and stay there longer and go deeper and create just better stuff. What’s happening here?

Laura Mae Martin: [00:38:02] So I think twofold. The first is just like the when piece, we all have places that we work best and do different types of work best. So I really talk about figuring out if you’re, you know, that I saw that when we returned from the pandemic to working in an office, some people were relieved because they had a hard time focusing at home. Some people were upset because they’ve never focused better than they did at home. And so learning that about yourself and then scheduling where appropriate. But what you’re talking about is what I talk in the book a lot about state dependency. So there’s all kinds of studies. One really interesting one where they sent two groups of scuba divers. One went underwater. One stayed on land. The groups they taught them a string of numbers and letters. Then they switched half the groups to half the land group went in water and they asked for recall, and the group that learned where they recalled was significantly higher than the group that switched. And so they were in the water learning these strings, and then they were in the water recalling the strings. And so for something like you, your brain is actually associating writing with the smell of coffee, with the buzz of people with the sights that you’re seeing. And so you can actually use that to your advantage with what I call hotspots and saying, okay, I know I write best here, I’m going to save this spot for writing, and you’re better off not doing other tasks there because you want your brain to associate writing in this spot, writing coffee so that when you go into a cafe, instead of doing email and then writing, you know, you just want to focus on writing.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:39:37] And so you could do that in the office or in your house if you say, oh, I always do. My client calls here, I always write here, I always code on my back porch. Whatever it is, if you have different spots, you can start to say, I associate those spots with those tasks. And when I sit at that spot, my brain immediately goes into that mode. You can also use that for relaxation. So you’ve created what I call a knot spot on your morning hike, because your brain knows I’m not responsible for work or writing or anything, so it instantly relaxes on the hike. So I have a spot in my house we call the Cozy Corner. It’s like in the corner of our bedroom. I’ve never once brought a phone or computer to that spot. It’s just where I drink my coffee. And so my brain, when I sit in that chair, it’s instantly relaxed. I don’t have to kind of ease into that because I’ve never been stressed in that spot. And so you can do that to your advantage. You can learn those natural rhythms, but then you can also start to section out hotspots and knot spots for yourself, so that the wear of working really sharpens that.

Jonathan Fields: [00:40:37] That makes sense to me. And at the same time my brain is going, am I just being really precious about this? You know, like. Like really? Like, do I need to actually go to a cafe, like to do my writing? Like, come on, it’s just writing. Like, shouldn’t you just be able to get into the zone? Just sort of like, do what you need to do. Turn it on anywhere. Like, I have a friend who’s like, I could write anywhere. Um, and I’m like, shouldn’t I be able to do that also?

Laura Mae Martin: [00:41:02] I don’t think so. I think that when you talk to really successful people and find out what their patterns are for getting things done, it always includes spots. I love to do this. I love to sit on this chair and relax and read my newspaper in the morning. I really want to do all my meetings with customers here because that’s where I’m always thinking about customers. And so whether it’s the when, the where, I think the more you learn about yourself, your friend who’s writing anywhere may not be writing as well as you may be taking longer to write, may not be producing the same type of results in one writing session. Sessions. So I would just think about, you know, what works for you. And that’s where you’re getting your best output and you want to play on that.

Jonathan Fields: [00:41:44] All right. I’m feeling a little bit better about that. But but that brings up another issue. And this is something that you write about also, which is the notion of boundaries. You know, like so when we’re saying, okay, I want to define the time that I’m going to do this, I want to find the place that I want to do this, like I want all this stuff to be just the way that I want it. Right? And then then you realize, oh, but I also exist in a world with other people, um, you know, at home, at work and all this other stuff. And I feel like it really does bring up this, like the conversation around boundaries. So take me into that a bit.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:42:16] I think that when we talk about setting our priorities and then how to say no boundaries gets ahead of that a little bit, because having boundaries requires that we say no less often if we communicate boundaries widely. And so I like to talk about boundaries in the positive sense. So most people think of boundaries as this I don’t do this, I don’t do this. But instead of saying I don’t take meetings after five, I take meetings 8 to 5. You know, that changed people’s brain to think, wow, look at all that she is doing. So, you know, if somebody says, hey, I’d love to meet with you 3 to 6 p.m., you know, you don’t have to say, oh, I don’t take meetings, then I use that. You just say, I use that time to write. Every day I take meetings between 8 and 3. So it just shifts people’s way of thinking about what you do do. And I think by having those boundaries, it shows that you’re really intentional about your time. It causes less requests to come in because a lot of times people they don’t know, they don’t know when you write, when you work, when you take meetings, what you prefer. And so it gets rid of some of that ambiguity.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:43:18] Again, even with kids, you know, we don’t say there’s no screen time on the weekdays. We say we do movie nights on the weekends. And that’s the only thing my kids brains go to. And so if you have those boundaries, it just makes a lot less back and forth. And it also says for you. Okay, these are the things that I care about that set future me up to get more done. And, you know, again, it’s not super rigid. You know, I like to even an 80 over 20, 80% of the time you’re keeping the boundary. That’s still going to establish it. But I talk about it in the book, running into a coworker that was a close friend and a colleague, and he said, oh, I’ve been really wanting to schedule a meeting with you, but I need you to decline if I didn’t add an agenda. So, you know, that’s a boundary I’ve set and I’m fine with it. You know, it probably has saved me a lot of time over the years that people know that I’m not going to accept a meeting unless I see an agenda. And so small things like that can add up over time to really protect what you care about.

Jonathan Fields: [00:44:17] Yeah, I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me. And still, I love the idea of just this simple change in the way that you’re framing it instead of like, this is the thing that’s not okay. It’s sort of like, this is the thing that is okay, and here’s one. And and then it’s sort of like the assumption is just, oh, if it doesn’t happen within like this approved window, that that’s not okay, but you’re stating it in the positive. So it kind of it feels like that would change the tone of the conversation of the interaction rather than, oh, this person is pushing me away or saying no to me. It’s like, no, they’re telling me when it’s a yes. So like, cool, I’ll just make sure that I sort of like step into the yes zone.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:44:54] Exactly.

Jonathan Fields: [00:44:55] And still they’re going to be folks that you feel you can’t really enforce those boundaries with, you know, certainly certain family members or that, you know, just when I described earlier, I was a young associate at a law firm and two senior partners, like, here’s work, here’s work, here’s work, I need it now. I need it. Yesterday, I didn’t feel like I had the ability, which I guess circles us back to the early conversation around like saying no.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:45:24] And maybe it was like getting those two partners in a room and saying, hey, here’s all the things I’m being requested. You know, I think what you learn, which you learned, is it’s a long game. You know, you can have no boundaries or you can let people push those boundaries, or you can say yes to too much, but it will explode eventually. And I think when you also are saying yes to too much, you’re not doing your best work. And so if you are communicating that in some instances you can get buy in from from managers and things like that, in some instances it’s not a good environment for you, in which case that will flush itself out and you’ll realize that. But I think that the problem is, again, with the three priorities, I’ll ask people, what are your top three priorities? Or I ask, what are some boundaries you have? And they’re not defined. And so I think the first way of understanding, how can you ask other people to respect boundaries that you haven’t yet defined and communicated for yourself? And so I think that’s again, part of the exercise is just saying, when do I want to stop taking meetings at night? Do I want to be accessible over the weekend via email. When do I want to be available for this and this? And do I want to go to dinner at my mother in law’s every other Friday? Or, you know, having really thought through that is the first step so that you feel better about saying no. I think that’s a big part of it, is when you have a boundary, it feels a lot easier to say no than having to decide every time, is this something I want to do?

Jonathan Fields: [00:46:51] Do you feel like the popularization of remote and hybrid work over the last 4 or 5 years has made this more interesting? Because, you know, it’s sort of like when everyone’s not showing up in the office at the same basic set of hours, and people are distributed around the world now working all different times, and a lot of it is remote. I sometimes wonder the fact of hybrid or remote work ends up really graying, what boundaries are, and also what people think they’re allowed to do when it comes to boundaries.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:47:26] Yes, that’s a great point. I think at first it was everyone working from home which then turned into living at work, you know, which then turned into how do I then redefine some of these things for myself. So it’s certainly sharpened the conversation around what are our boundaries? Why are they important? You know, I talk about my dad work from home since 1995. He was an original work from home person, and I never once saw him working outside his office. He always had this boundary where he never brought his computer into the living room or at dinner or anything like that. And I asked him, how did you set that? You know, how would you say, I’m available at this time? And he said, well, it’s because I only had Ethernet at first, so I really couldn’t work anywhere. And that was the boundary was kind of set because of that. And so I think in some ways we have to adopt that mindset. You know, we have to say shut the door. We’re closing the time where we’re working. And for some that’s actually giving your phone a bedtime. I talk about giving my kids a bedtime, giving my phone a bedtime, giving it its own bedroom, putting it in there and saying, hey, I’m signed off at this time, communicating that if you need to get in touch with me, you know, this is how. But actually thinking through that is now important. Whereas it wasn’t before. And so it’s just causing us to have to flex a new muscle on what do we want our boundary to be, because otherwise it just bleeds. Like you said, it just becomes I’m working all the time. I’m always available. It’s way more intention required now, I think.

Jonathan Fields: [00:48:54] No, that makes a lot of sense. And I think we’re just all still navigating that and trying to figure it out. And we can’t talk about all of this also without also talking about the idea of distraction. You know, I think so many of us feel like we are like the device that is in our pocket at any given moment in time. Sometimes multiple devices keeps us perpetually tethered. But that device is not just about connection and productivity and getting things done and making your calls. It’s also we have these apps on there that are these, you know, like nuclear bombs of distraction. But it’s also it’s everything all around us. So like for me, when I was saying earlier, I go to a cafe to write and I like the noise and the people and stuff like that, I’m not interacting with them. You know, for some reason my brain actually views what somebody else would view as like, oh, this is like massive distraction centre. I could never work here. And my brain’s like, no, like, this is actually exactly what I need. So talk to me about the idea of distractions and also the sort of like the subjectivity of distraction.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:49:53] I think that people say, okay, you’ve told me to set my priorities. You’ve told me to set the right day to work on them. You told me to set the time, the right location. Here I am. I’ve blocked 9 to 1030 to work on something, and now it’s 905. And I quickly just have to answer this text. And now it’s 910. I’ve got to wrap up email. I have one tab open. I’m just going to finish that now. It’s 940. I get into it a little bit, but someone calls and now it’s, you know, now it’s 1015. I’ve barely done anything. It’s not worth getting started. So a lot of people feel like time is the problem. We don’t have enough time. We don’t. We need more time. But what happens is the distraction eats away at the time we do set. And so being really, again, intentional about the time that we’ve set aside to do things can shift what used to take an hour and a half or more to take 20 minutes. And so I talk about child proofing yourself again, taking that little more of a a distant view and saying, okay, I’ve set 3 to 6 to write you. At 245, you’re in the coffee shop and you think, What is Jonathan going to get into? What could distract him right now? Oh, I see he has email open.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:51:01] His phone’s out. Out of his bag. You know, he’s going to need to get a snack. So what can I do before that time starts? In order to get rid of that option, minimize all the tabs you know, close this out. Put the phone in the bag, turn it on silent so that when that time block starts, you’re almost bored into focus. It’s kind of panicky for our brains because we’re used to that video game mentality where there’s always something to check, always something to do, which gives us way more of a dopamine hit than staring at a blank page trying to write. And so by practicing that, it gets easier and easier and we are able to drop into a focus, but it doesn’t happen naturally. So same thing with our phones. You know, we you might need your phone on your hike to capture those ideas, but how do you make sure that you’re also not seeing pop ups from new emails that could be later on? So I’m really specific about what apps can be opened at what time, what notifications come through.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:51:56] You know, I tell people I’m so serious about Monotasking that I don’t even use my phone if I’m watching TV. I think if I’m not paying attention to what I’m watching, there’s no point in watching it. I’m not going to enjoy this fully if I’m also on my phone. So I’ll either spend time on my phone and then cut it off, or I’ll watch TV and then put my phone away. And so thinking, actually, what can I do to make sure that I’m not getting those distractions? It unfortunately requires a lot of thought, a lot of intention. And then, you know, to your point, I think there’s a difference between what helps my brain work best. So for me, that’s film music and listening to music, while for you that’s the noise of a coffee shop. For some people, if that music is playing in the background for them, they’d say, oh gosh, that is really bothering me. So I would think of it more as what’s a distraction versus what helps me get in the zone. And it’s easy to tell the difference, usually by how it makes you feel and produce results.

Jonathan Fields: [00:52:51] Yeah, I think tuning into how something makes you feel is is so important, and often we don’t tune into that regardless of the situation. We’re just sort of like living from our head rather than living from sort of like our felt sense. I want to circle back a little bit. Also, you know, earlier we were talking about this idea of routines and fluid routines. You introduced introduce this concept you call when then routines also, which I thought was really interesting.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:53:17] Yeah. That’s just again, I think I don’t like the word habits because it raises that same sense of, uh, that productivity does. Just like another thing, I have to do a habit. And so the when then is just, hey, I’m already doing this. Let me associate this with it. So I really want to do daily affirmations, you know, instead of trying to make that a habit and fit it in, why don’t I just say, hey, every day while I’m brushing my teeth? I could do that because I know I’m going to brush my teeth. So I’m going to associate these two things together. Or any time that maybe I say, oh, I really want to put my phone away at night. Maybe it’s, hey, when I walk out of the room putting my kid to bed, I walk right to put my phone away because that’s something I know I’m going to do. So it’s just constant association of when. Then it’s just more of a routine than a habit. And I think by associating two things, one, that you know you’re going to do, it just makes it more natural. Because the problem is people say all the time, I’ve been meaning to do this. I’ve been meaning to this. Okay. When were you planning to do that? So by giving it a when spot, you actually solidify that it’s going to happen in your schedule. You solidify a trigger that at least makes you think, I should put my phone away now because I just walked out of my daughter’s room. That’s a that’s an association. And so you can use that to remember things. You can use that to, you know, where should I put this? When I think of where’s the tape? I think of this spot. Now that’s where I can put the tape. So I talk about it in the book a lot of ways to just use your brain and that hack to both get things done and some other small wins.

Jonathan Fields: [00:54:47] Yeah, I like that it gets tied to something also that happens on a recurring basis. So it’s like I’m going to brush my teeth every day. So this is the thing that triggers the the action that comes after it. Speaking of action, I think that kind of brings us all the way back around. Earlier when we just started talking, um, you were describing, I think you used the phrase aligning your intention with your action. And the name of your book is uptime. And I feel like this is sort of like the core idea here. Like underlying all of this stuff is, am I actually showing up and acting in a way that is aligned with what I intend? How do we get a little bit more certain that we can do that, or all these ideas really just all leading towards that at the end of the day?

Laura Mae Martin: [00:55:32] The reason I chose the word uptime is, you know, when we are in, however infrequent we might feel, that zone where we think, wow, I am killing it. I’m feeling good personally. I’m doing, you know, professionally, I’m making time for myself. I’m having good ideas. I’m executing. It’s kind of that super on top of it feeling. And that’s what I define as uptime. And so all of the tactics in the book are how to achieve that. But they’re all small changes. So nothing is an overhaul. They’re all little hacks, small things. And you know, I talk about in the book, it could be read like a menu if you don’t struggle with too many meetings. If you don’t struggle with procrastination, those chapters aren’t for you. If your brain picks up on a few things and a few chapters, that’s probably what you’re struggling with, and a few small changes there can make a big overall difference. And so to your point, I think trying to understand what is productivity mean, you know, how do I tell if I’m productive? The real question is do I feel good? Am I doing my best? Am I operating at a level that is sustainable? So at the law firm for you, the answer would have been no. And so how do you get to that point before you know everything goes wrong and you feel like you need a giant overhaul? What are the small, simple things that you can do in order to say, are my intentions matching my actions, and am I producing my best work in the best way? Feeling my best personally and professionally?

Jonathan Fields: [00:56:57] Now that lands well. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So in this container of Good Life Project., if I offer the phrase to live a good life. What comes up?

Laura Mae Martin: [00:57:07] I would say to live in a way that makes you feel you’re operating your best, and that you’re prioritizing yourself at the same time.

Jonathan Fields: [00:57:18] Mm. Thank you.

Jonathan Fields: [00:57:21] Hey, before you leave, if you loved this episode, Safe bet, you’ll also love the conversation we had with Charlie Gilkey about finishing the right things. You’ll find a link to Charlie’s episode in the show. Notes. This episode of Good Life Project. was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and Me. Jonathan Fields Editing help By Alejandro Ramirez. Kristoffer Carter crafted our theme music and special thanks to Shelley Adelle for her research on this episode. And of course, if you haven’t already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project. in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did. Since you’re still listening here, would you do me a personal favor? A seven second favor and share it. Maybe on social or by text or by email. Even just with one person. Just copy the link from the app you’re using and tell those you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen, then even invite them to talk about what you’ve both discovered. Because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that’s how we all come alive together. Until next time, I’m Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project..