Have you ever felt like you’ve been boxed in by someone else’s blueprint for how you “should” live. Or perhaps you’ve achieved certain material trappings of success, yet still feel a void or lack of fulfillment. That the power you want over your life, the wealth and freedom you’d love to experience never quite arrive? If so, then this illuminating conversation is for you.
It’s part of our special “New Beginnings” series this month on Good Life Project, where each week we’ve been exploring together how to create a fresh, meaningful start, one step at a time. And today our guests provide a masterclass on redefining wealth and dismantling conventional notions of power.
My first guest is Vivian Tu, a former Wall Street trader turned personal finance guru on a mission to demystify money mindsets. Vivian’s journey shows how she reclaimed her power by redefining success and wealth entirely on her own terms in an industry rife with inequality and harmful narratives about self-worth. She’ll share hard-won insights on cultivating a wealthy mindset to unlock your full earning potential.
Next up is Kemi Nekvapil, one of Australia’s leading coaches empowering female leaders and entrepreneurs, especially those from marginalized communities. With profound wisdom from extraordinary life experiences, Kemi is passionate about helping others reclaim their power and live without apologies. She’ll dive into how we unconsciously give away our power and the transformative process of integrating all parts of ourselves to live and lead authentically.
Together, Vivian and Kemi will help us reimagine what true power looks like – not as an intense, dominating force but as a beautiful expression of presence, self-ownership, authentic connection and abundance to be shared.
You can find Vivian at: Website | Instagram | Listen to Our Full-Length Convo with Vivian
You can find Kemi at: Website | Instagram | Listen to Our Full-Length Convo with Kemi
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photo credit: Prue Aja, Heidi Gutman
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Episode Transcript:
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:00:00] I believe that power is a dance. I talk about the power of delight. Italk about the power of fun. It is not this necessarily this intense, dominant force. It can bebeauty and fun and connection, and it can be abundant and we can share it with others. And onething that I know for sure is that if I’m truly in my power, I’m not afraid of yours. I don’t needyou to make yourself smaller. I don’t need you to hide in the cupboard so that I can be bigger. Ican actually stand alongside you. You can stand alongside me. And together we can have powerin the world to do things in a particular way.
Jonathan Fields: [00:00:36] So tell me if you’ve ever felt this, like you’re kind of boxed in bysomeone else’s blueprint of how you should live. Or maybe you’ve achieved certain materialtrappings of success and you’ve checked all the boxes, yet still feel a void or lack of fulfillmentand power and agency that you want over your life. The wealth and freedom that you would loveto experience. None of this really quite arrives in the way you thought it thought it would. If so,then this illuminating spotlight conversation is for you. It’s part of our wrap up, actually, of ourspecial New Beginning series this month on Good Life Project., where each week we’ve beenexploring together how to create a fresh, meaningful start, one step at a time. And today, ourguests provide a really deep dive on redefining wealth and dismantling conventional notions ofpower and reassembling power in your own personal way. Our first guest is Vivian, too, a formerWall Street trader turned personal finance wizard on a mission to demystify money, mindsets andVivian’s journey. It really shows how she reclaimed her power by redefining success and wealthentirely on her own terms, in an industry rife with inequality and harmful narratives about self-worth. And she’ll share hard won insights on cultivating a wealthy mindset to unlock your fullearning potential. And then next up, you’ll hear from Kemi Nekvapil, one of Australia’s leadingcoaches empowering female leaders and leaders and entrepreneurs, especially those frommarginalized communities, with profound wisdom from really extraordinary life experiences.
Jonathan Fields: [00:02:04] Kemi is deeply passionate about helping others reclaim their powerand live without apology. And she’ll dive into how we unconsciously give away our power andthe transformative process of integrating all parts of ourselves to live and lead authentically.Together, Vivian and Kemi, they’ll really help us reimagine what true power looks like. Not as anintense, dominating force, but as this beautiful expression of presence and self ownership andauthentic connection and abundance to be shared. So excited to share this spotlight conversationwith you. I’m Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.. Hey. So our first guest is Viviantwo, a former Wall Street trader turned personal finance expert, educator, and founder of theGiant platform your Rich BFF. She’s on a mission to make the financial industry just moreinclusive and clearer, really, for everyone. Vivian has amassed millions of followers byredefining money mindsets and destigmatizing financial literacy with this really trademarked,fun, digestible approach. Her financial prowess culminated in the New York Times best sellingbook, Rich AF The Winning Money Mindset That Will Change Your Life. Billed as thedefinitive guide to personal finance for a new generation, and in this conversation, you’ll hear herfresh kind of no BS tips on how to think like a rich person.
Jonathan Fields: [00:03:29] Maximize earning potential, understand different investmentvehicles and accounts, identify little known tax loopholes and strategies, and ultimately build asmart, personalized money strategy of your own. And Vivian shares practical advice on steps likebuilding an emergency fund, paying down high interest debts, and investing early andconsistently, even with small amounts when you don’t have much to put into those Into thoseinvestments. Her mission is to make knowledge and secrets of the wealthy accessible to all,especially in marginalized communities historically left out of financial services. So whetheryou’re just starting out or looking to level up, maybe you feel like you’re a little further into lifeand you should have started earlier. Just dive in. I love how it sort of grounded and practical. Hertake is this conversation will really help to start equipping you with the tools to understand thefinancial landscape and live a life of wealth and abundance. And that gives you so much morepower and freedom in how you want to step into that life. Here’s Vivian. So it’s really interesting.You literally start out your new book with the line, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but theAmerican dream is dead. Take me there.
Vivian Tu: [00:04:42] Yeah. I mean, I think when I think about my parents generation. Right? Itwas a blueprint that you were supposed to follow. You could be a decent student, go to college,get a degree, get a desk job. You could be the sole breadwinner in your house. You could live anamazing middle class life, go on vacation to Florida or Disney World or whatever. Twice a yearyou would go on two vacations. You would be able to afford a home. Eventually you wouldbuild your wealth along with the real estate market, which only goes one way, frankly, and youwould live your happily ever after. And since then, I feel like my I’m a millennial. So mygeneration and the generation after mine, Gen Z and even Gen Alpha, now we’re looking aroundand we’re like, hey, I don’t know if this playbook works anymore because we did everything. Wewere told we were good students. We did go get those degrees, and now we have a student debtcrisis. There are trillions of dollars of student loan debt that needs to be paid back, and a lot ofstudents ended up getting degrees that didn’t pay back, that didn’t have the ROI they werelooking for. Not to mention wages have stagnated. The cost of housing has in many cases,depending on where you live, somewhere between 3 to 10 and life just doesn’t necessarily looklike it did back in the good old days. And so I think it’s really important for us to address that.The way to wealth, the way to financial security and stability is not the same as it was decadesago.
Jonathan Fields: [00:06:24] Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting, right? Because I think we work on aset of assumptions about the way the world is when it comes to opportunity and potentiallywealth building. Just if we do a certain thing, if we show up a certain way that X, Y, and Z willhappen, you know, and we trust in that. And, and I feel like what you’re describing is right. Youknow, that kind of worked for a couple of Couple of generations. But the truth is also, I thinkwhen you look underneath that, it also kind of worked for certain people. Correct. And it didn’twork for other people, you know. So what you’re describing as that American dream, it wasnever really the American dream that was inclusive in any meaningful way. This was like for acertain group of people who showed up in a certain place in a certain way. Yes. And now I thinkwhat you’re describing is now that sort of, you know, sense of anointing has gone away acrossthe board. Yeah. And people are grappling with this fact, like, okay, so what do we do now?Because we have this conversation. You’ve built a global community where you’re in thereserving every single day and answering a lot of questions. It sounds like part of what you realizegoes back to the earlier part of our conversation, too, which is that, yes, a lot of people don’tknow this information, but also particular communities of people really don’t know thisinformation. It’s almost like there’s a there’s a gatekeeping effect. And it sounds like part of whatyou start to step into is Let me not just kind of show what I know, but I really want to actuallyheal a chasm here. There’s a very particular thing that I want to speak to, and there’s informationthat I want to get into the hands of particular groups and communities of people.
Vivian Tu: [00:07:58] Yeah, I love that you bring that up because there is so much emphasis. Icall my audience the BFFs, and I’ve lovingly dubbed them The Leftovers because for so long, ifyou weren’t an old rich white guy wearing a Patagonia vest on CNBC, financial services didn’tcater to you. If you were a woman, you weren’t even allowed to have a credit card in your ownname until the mid 70s. If you were a person of color, it was totally possible that yourcommunity would be redlined and you would be prevented through unethical and certainlyillegal means from buying a home in certain neighborhoods. If you were a part of an LGBTQcouple and you walked into a bank to try to get a mortgage. Odds are good you would be wouldbe discriminated against. You would get a higher mortgage rate with worse terms than if youwere part of a heterosexual couple. And people have not had the same opportunities. So I thinkit’s really important to call out these injustices, as well as just make this financial informationaccessible and understandable, because anybody can Google the financial rules. But I talk aboutthis in my book Rich AF. Like we don’t need just the rules. We need to be taught a strategy, afinancial strategy, because you can learn the rules, but you still don’t know how to play thegame.
Jonathan Fields: [00:09:17] Riffing off that last word game, one of your lenses is like, well, thisis kind of a game. And like any game, there are cheats, there are loopholes. And this isn’t likeslick, gimmicky type of things. But there are actually there are techniques. There are things thatpeople are just not aware of, that people who have access to different information, to differentadvisors, to different circumstances are. And one of the things you address is sort of like thepower of loopholes when you’re really thinking about like, how do I develop a strategy?
Vivian Tu: [00:09:45] Yeah. I will say this tax codes, financial strategies, career how to’s, how tobudgets, savings, loopholes, anything like that. These were all written by rich people for richpeople. And they’ve passed these secrets down in their communities for generations. But many ofus don’t know these things. Did you know that you can be taxed less if you contribute to aretirement account? Now, suddenly it’s not just today you taking care of future you, but it’s alsotoday you getting a tax break for doing so. You know, do people understand how high yieldsavings accounts offer so much more in interest than a traditional brick and mortar savingsaccount? If you didn’t know that you’re missing out and you’re still giving your bank a nearinterest free loan, did you know that if you set up direct deposit so that a percentage of yourpaycheck goes towards a specific savings account instead of all into your checking account.Psychologically, you are less likely to dip into that money. You’re going to be a better budgeter.You’re going to be able to save more. You’re going to be able to save on your taxes. You’re goingto be able to invest. All of these are secrets, but they shouldn’t be. They should be easilyaccessible to the public. And I just, you know, really think that this information should be taughtin public schools. And until it is, I’m going to be shouting it from the rooftops. What I like toremind everyone is that the top performer never gets fired. Never. If you are performing at thathigh level, if you are outselling outperforming the people you sit around the people who are inyour team, you will always be safe.
Vivian Tu: [00:11:21] And it’s really important to acknowledge that even during times ofinstability, at a broader level, if you are a strong performer, you can still ask for more moneybecause you still have value and you still have worth and you are providing something that thatcompany needs. And I think it’s okay to ask because even if you get told no, you’re no worse offthan you were 20s beforehand. And so I think regardless of the year, regardless of theenvironment, you can still ask and I recommend people ask for 10 to 15% raises every singleyear, as long as they are performing to that level. Am I saying you’re going to get that everysingle year? Not necessarily. But if you don’t get a raise, the same percent that inflation iscurrently at, you know, at one point it was at like 8 or 9%. I think right now it’s come in a littlebit closer to like 5%. If you’re not getting a raise equivalent to that of inflation, you’re actuallygoing to make less next year than you did this year. And so not only is it critically important tomake sure your pay keeps up with inflation, but also seeing how much your corporation valuesyou through pay is a very healthy marker to To understand where you sit. And if you have beentold year after year, your performance is not where it needs to be to get that raise that tells yousomething. Or if they consistently say, hey, you’re our top performer, but we don’t have budget,that also tells you something. Maybe it’s time to go somewhere where they will have budget topay a top performer like you.
Jonathan Fields: [00:12:51] I’d love to get granular for a moment if you’re open to this. Let’ssay somebody is listening to this and they’re like.
Vivian Tu: [00:12:55] Yeah, Let’s do it.
Jonathan Fields: [00:12:56] Yeah. Okay. That makes sense to me. And I actually have been atop performer. You know, like there’s been a lot of change, a lot of shifting. But I’m the one whokeeps staying here and I feel like I’m doing really good work. But also I see the macro trend here.I see the impact on my company or my team or my division, whatever it is. And I know thingsare tight, but I still need what I need.
Vivian Tu: [00:13:15] Yeah.
Jonathan Fields: [00:13:16] What would be some basic language that somebody might be ableto actually step into to sort of like open this conversation?
Vivian Tu: [00:13:22] Yeah. First and foremost, I highly recommend everybody create a bragbook promo pitch raise receipts folder in their email. Essentially, anytime you get an email thatpats you on the on the back saying, hey, we could not have gotten this project done withoutJonathan. Like, Vivian is the best designer on this entire team. Like whatever. Forward thoseemails. That way you essentially have a Rolodex of all of the times you knocked it out of thepark. And it’s very easy to quantify your successes. I would then set time with your manager 6 to8 months before your end of year review or mid-year review. That’s when you start asking formoney. Because what everyone likes to do is they wait until November or December and theyare too afraid to ask throughout the year. So they, like, bottle it up, bottle it up, and then it startsto bubble to the surface, bubble to the surface, bubble to the surface. And you get to Decemberand you’re like, if I don’t get a raise next year, I’m going to quit. And your boss is like, where isthis coming from? Like, we’ve never talked about this. It feels so out of left field. Whereas if youstart six months in advance, eight months in advance, and don’t be annoying, but be persistent.Remind them every two months that, hey, these are the goals that I’m setting. Here’s how I’mtracking to reach them. Additionally, I would like or you know, a raise of XYZ would becommensurate to the type of work and the level that I’m operating at.
Vivian Tu: [00:14:48] Remind them that pay is important to you because they need to know.They need to know that you are always going to be keeping your eye on that dollar sign. Andthat way when October comes and HR pulls your manager into a back room and is like, this isyour budget, you have to now divvy this budget across your entire team. You understand thatyour boss is going to have you top of mind because you’ve been asking for the past, you know, 6to 8 months. You’ve probably touched base with them 2 or 3 times. They know you care aboutmoney. You’re going to be top of their mind, whereas everyone else is going to be an afterthoughtbecause they haven’t asked. Essentially, you have to tell people you’re going to do good work, dothe good work, and then take a megaphone and remind everyone of the amazing work you did sothat you can be first in line to get that money, because you don’t get paid by putting your headdown and being the smartest person in the room. There has been statistic research that the personwith the highest IQ is not the one paid the most. It is the person who makes the hardest effort tobe known socially. And people think they do more than they actually do.
Jonathan Fields: [00:15:48] I love the fact that a lot of what you talk about is sort of like, canwe dismantle some of the crazy mythology about what you have to do to actually slowlyaccumulate wealth and talk about the reality of the fact that it’s actually pretty straightforward?There are step by step things that anybody can do. When you think about this sort of what to dowith your money side of things. Is there like one big myth or misnomer that really jumps out atyou, that bothers you, that you’d want to speak to? Or is it really just sort of like theaccumulation of a lot of just little bits of misinformation that stop us from doing what we need todo?
Vivian Tu: [00:16:23] I would say it’s more like death by a thousand paper cuts. It’s all theselittle bits of information that people are just missing along the way. I think finance is very, verychallenging because it’s almost like speaking a new language. The jargon is so heavy, it’s notabundantly clear what a 401 K is based on the name. If you don’t already know what a 401 K is,it’s not abundantly clear what the Roth in Roth IRA stands for. If you don’t already know, andonce you do understand the jargon, it’s just really about setting healthy habits in place. But I dothink one of the biggest myths is that only rich people can invest. Because how do you thinkthose rich people got rich in the first place? They were investing. It’s not something that you waitto do later. It’s how you get there. I joke that investing is the only way a single person can be atwo household income, because not only are you working hard for your money, your money isworking hard for you. It’s like having a great spouse who also brings in money and helps supportthe family of one, without having to actually go out and date and find that person, what have you.But it just allows you to make money while you sleep. Because we as humans can feasibly onlywork so many hours a day. We are made of flesh and bones. Our brains do give out after a certainpoint. You are not as good of a money making tool as your money. Your money is a better use, sothe faster you can get to your money, making you more money versus your body or your brainmaking you more money, the better.
Jonathan Fields: [00:18:04] If you are going to say, if somebody comes to you and says, hey,listen, I’m finally at a point in my life where I’ve got a little bit of money where I can start doingsomething with it, and I know you’re probably going to take an issue with even somebodysaying, I’m finally at a point because your whole thing is like, it doesn’t matter even if it’s a dollaror $10. Just start now. It’s exactly like when somebody just says, okay, I just want to know, like,what are the three things? If I could only think about, like, my life is so crazy, so busy. Like, Ijust want to know what are the three things that might be the biggest levers in what I might thinkabout doing with money, even if it’s small bits of money as it comes in, you know, like everyother week and a paycheck. What would you say to them?
Vivian Tu: [00:18:42] Yeah, I would say first and foremost, start an emergency fund. It’s reallyshitty that the number one reason for bankruptcy in this country is medical debt. That seems likethat shouldn’t be the case. You don’t choose to get a kidney stone or cancer or get sick, but it’simportant to have an emergency fund in case the wheel falls off your car or your roof caves in.You don’t want to go into mountains of debt just because you couldn’t afford that. So I would sayfor single people, 3 to 6 months of living expenses is good. If you are a head of household, if youhave a mortgage, just some more fixed costs. I would say 6 to 12 months is probably a better bet.So first have that emergency fund. Two. Not all debt is created equal. I would rank your debtfrom highest to lowest interest rate, and focus on paying off any debt with an interest rate that’shigher than 7%. First, because that is high interest rate debt. Typically, anything above that isusually credit card debt, and that debt compounds faster. Then you will likely be able to earn incapital gains if you were to invest. So really, really you want to pay off any high interest rate debtas soon as humanly possible. It just snowballs so fast that it’s going to be hard to get undercontrol unless you’re making a concerted effort to pay it down. And then last but definitely notleast, if you have your emergency fund, if you have paid off that high interest rate debt, investearly and often. So this is as simple as putting away a dollar or two, $5, $10 every month and setit up on an automatic direct deposit from your paycheck to your brokerage.
Vivian Tu: [00:20:20] And there are so many brokerages that allow you to essentiallyautomatically allocate your dollars, and you’re going to want to consider index funds. You’regoing to consider index funds that track the S&P 500. You might consider something that tracksthe total stock market, something that tracks global indices or sectors that you’re passionateabout, whether that be tech or the pharma field or maybe not pharma, because I got burned bythat. But, um, you know, just whatever sectors you’re really passionate about, as well as if you’rereally saving and investing for a specific goal, a target date retirement fund might make sense,right? You want to save and invest for retirement. All you have to do is essentially calculate theyear where you will turn 6065, whatever, and back into which target date fund makes the mostsense for you. And it’s essentially a catered way for you to always be investing in something thatmakes sense for your age. And that’s again catered to the average person. If you are incrediblyhigh net worth, maybe that doesn’t make sense for you, but it’s a great jump off point and it’s soeasy to do. And worst case, if you really feel like investing is still too complicated, just get arobo advisor to do it for you. You take a quiz about your money goals, what you know, howmuch money you make, what your goals are when you want to retire, how much money you’respending, what tax bracket you’re in, whatever. And they will pick investments for you. You justneed to start because time in the market beats timing the market or picking the perfect investmentevery single time.
Jonathan Fields: [00:21:49] Yeah, that makes so much sense. So zooming the lens out a littlebit, we’ve been talking a lot about money, about wealth, about worth. In your mind, what is thereal role of money or wealth in a life well lived?
Vivian Tu: [00:22:03] When I first started thinking about money and wanting to be rich, it wasfor very shallow reasons. I wanted to be able to buy that new designer purse, drive my lime greenLamborghini. I wanted to have the mansion on the hill, but as I started getting to a positionwhere I’m comfortable saying I’m rich, I live an incredibly good life, I am wealthy, I am doinggreat. Money has become more of the ability to have optionality in my life. Money is power.Money is agency. Money is being able to take an Uber at 11 p.m. at night without doublechecking how much money is in my bank account, instead of taking the subway, because I’m notsure if I can afford it. Money is being able to leave a bad boss. Money is being able to leave abad relationship. Money is being able to leave a bad apartment. It gives you the power andagency to live the life you want to live without fear, because it gives you choices. And so I thinkit’s so important to encourage people to want money, to want wealth and richness in their lifebecause it gets them out of bad situations and lets them choose exactly how they’re going to liveand what a happily ever after means to them.
Jonathan Fields: [00:23:19] Love that feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well.So in this container of Good Life Project., if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comesup.
Vivian Tu: [00:23:27] To live a good life is to have all of your needs met, and then be able to usethe resources that you have to not only bring yourself joy, but help provide that joy to others, thatcomfort to others, and that security to others. I think it’s all about spreading that wealth, becausewhen you are rich, it is not only your obligation, but it’s your privilege to be able to help others,to be able to spread that wealth, to be able to spread that education so that more of us get to live agood life.
Jonathan Fields: [00:24:02] Thank you.
Vivian Tu: [00:24:03] Of course.
Jonathan Fields: [00:24:05] And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors. I just love Ilove Vivian’s take and also just her energy and the integrity and honesty that she brings to whatshe does and this desire to genuinely help. And next up is Kemi Nekvapil, one of Australia’sleading coaches helping marginalised communities reclaim their power. And in her book powerA Woman’s Guide to Living and Leading Without Apology, Kemi redefines power throughlenses like presence, ownership and responsibility. In this conversation, you’ll learn to becomereally more aware of the internal beliefs and external forces that can diminish your sense ofagency and can be shares empowering personal stories that illuminate how we unconsciouslygive away or have our power taken. Her powerful questions invite self-reflection on the areas ofyour life where you may feel powerless or powerful. These problems really reveal insights aboutintegrating all parts of yourself to step into your full power without making others smaller. Andyou’ll gain new understandings of power not just as this dominating force, Enforce, but also issomething of beauty and fun and connection and abundance to be shared. So if you’re ready tolive and lead your life with that apology from an authentic place of equality and self-responsibility, this conversation provides a transformative framework for that journey of self-discovery.
Jonathan Fields: [00:25:27] Here’s Cammy. So as we have this conversation, you are in theworld largely as a coach, a facilitator, a consultant working often with women on the topic ofpower, on the topic of full expression, on the topic of living the way that they want to live. Morerecently, into this topic of power and all the nuances around it. And I want to dive into thatbecause it is, in fact the subject of your new book. So this becomes, at some point, a centralfocus for you. I mean, it starts out as your own exploration as you move into the world ofexploring not just power, but also service and how to live well. And going deep into what are theelements of how people actually show up and live these good lives like power becomes alsosomething that you keep circling back to. It sounds like and over time developed your owneffectively model around it. But part of that also has got to start with just the notion of what ispower. I mean, when we’re talking about that word, what are we even talking about?
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:26:26] And I have to share that when I was speaking to my writing mentorabout this book, and we were sort of brainstorming with each other about the title. And Iremember just saying to him, power. And the first thing that my head said was, who do you thinkyou are to write a book about power? Like I once again, I had this visceral reaction of, you arenot allowed to go there. You do not get to speak about this. But I also knew because I’ve beenwriting for a while. Ah, this is exactly why you need to go there and you need to write this book.So the first thing I did as an English person was I went straight to the Oxford Dictionary becauseI knew we all have these ideas of what many words mean. And I thought, I actually want to go toa respected source and see what it says. What is power? And the Oxford Dictionary definition ofthe word power is the ability or capacity to do something in a particular way. Now that isextraordinary to me because what it shows is that we have all been told that there is only oneparticular form of power in the world that is generally male, that is generally Anglo, cisgendered, able bodied Christian. Suddenly, if it’s how you do things in the world, that becomesone form of power. It doesn’t become all forms of power. And then I remember talking to myeditor. I had just started writing stories, so I started writing stories from my clients, working with,you know, over a decade now, working with females in leadership roles in various industries,various career levels.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:27:57] And I started seeing these themes of where they felt powerless intheir lives or in the rooms that they found themselves in. But I started with my own stories and asI was writing them, I believed that gender was going to be the predominant area where I foundmyself powerless, which maybe was naive. I’m not sure, but this is the power of writing as well.But as I started writing the stories, I was like, oh, actually it’s race. There’s the intersection ofgender for me, but actually it is race as a defining factor where I have felt that my power hasbeen taken away the most. And so suddenly I looked at, okay, so we’ve got this idea of power.We have a form of power in the world that everyone knows, and yet we’re being told it is thecapacity and the ability to do something. I remember one night thinking, I know how I want toredefine power is in the word itself. I know it’s in the word. So I just wrote on a post-it note thenight before the structure is in the word, and I just went to sleep. I woke up the next morning. Idid my meditation, and in my meditation came the acronym, which is presence, ownership, Shipwisdom, equality and responsibility. And once again, Jonathan, I didn’t question it. I knew this iswhere all of these stories, all of my client experiences and what I’m exploring fits into this word.
Jonathan Fields: [00:29:15] Mhm. Yeah. Again trusting the download. Mhm. Let’s drop into themodel a bit. You have this acronym and it’s literally the the letters of the word power. The p thefirst p there actually represents the word presence. Take me deeper into what you’re actuallyinviting people into when you talk about presence.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:29:35] 100%. We have already touched on it because it is presence isawareness. So when I talk about presence in regard to power, it’s being aware of what is workingand is not working in our lives, and that our ability to be present or not has a really big impact onour ability to connect with ourselves and to connect with other people. We have to know what isgoing on for us before we get out into the world to try and make any shifts or changes ortransformations. We have to know what in my life is good, you know? But what in my life hasspace for change or growth or needs to be completely overhauled? And we have to start with aplace of presence, creating stillness in our lives to ask ourselves these questions.
Jonathan Fields: [00:30:17] Yeah. I mean, when you talk about creating that space, creating thatstillness, to really be present in the truth of whatever is part of that is internal, but part of it foryou, it sounds like also is the truth of the systems, the society, the culture in which we function.Because especially in the context of how do we step back into a place of power in our own lives,that’s got to be part of the equation, right?
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:30:43] It has to. And for me, I believe it gives us power. So for those of usthat have marginalized identities, whatever that looks like, the reality is, is that we are operatingwithin systems that were not created for us. So just last week, I was working with a client who isa is a lawyer here in Australia, and she was in a particular room with other lawyers, and she justfelt herself close up and she said, I don’t know why I do that. Why? Why do I close up? I havesomething to say. Why do I close up? And I said to her, yes, we can have a look at yourindividual reaction in that space, but also let’s have a look at the context. You are not meant to bein that room. You are never meant to be in that room. So let’s look at it with the larger contextthat you’re operating under. So it doesn’t just become, what is wrong with me? Why can’t I dothat? And once again, I felt her just go, oh, of course, of course. And I’m like, okay, so can you,can we now look at some self-compassion? The reason that you struggle, or any woman or anyperson coming from marginalized identity, might struggle to have a voice in that room is becauseyou weren’t meant to be in that room.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:31:47] And then it actually led her to this space. Of all of the things and thework that she has done to get in that room in the first place. And it would be a shame for her notto speak now, like it actually ended with quite a light note. But yes, 100%. We have to be presentto the structures because they are real. I feel very privileged and honored to do the work that Ido. I love the work that I do, and I can walk into a room as a black woman and be made to feelpowerless in a moment. And that is real. That is not in my head. I have not made that up. And sofor me, being aware of where is this me and what is my response to this reality compared to thisis reality that I have to navigate every single day?
Jonathan Fields: [00:32:29] Yeah, it’s got to be really interesting also because and this is part ofwhat you write about under the exploration of presence is the notion that on the one hand, wehave to acknowledge the system we’re working within and its input into the way that we feelempowered or disempowered or somewhere in the middle. And at the same time, you also don’twant to let people off the hook. There’s another side to this, which is sometimes one of our goto’s is who else can I blame? So it’s a really interesting dance, isn’t it?
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:32:59] It is. But the reality is we’re blaming other people is that it leaves uspowerless. It’s the complete opposite of a sense of power, because it’s all over there with them.And then which kind of leads to the final power principle, which is the R, which we’ll get to. Butif it’s all over there with that person, if what they are doing and obviously I’m not talking aboutany situation that involves abuse, but in situations where, you know, we’re at work and justsomeone, oh, why don’t they do their work? Or why don’t they do this? It’s over there. But if wewere present to ourselves, we could be thinking, oh, I’m present to the fact that I don’t want tohave an uncomfortable conversation with that person about their work. It is easier for me to pointthe finger and maybe enroll other people in the team about how they’re not doing their work,which is so much more dramatic and delightful and, you know, than it is to actually go and havethe difficult conversation with the person about saying, hey, you’re not pulling your weight in theteam and it’s impacting the team. And so I believe that personal development is a gift to all of usthat have the resources. And one of those gifts is that we are responsible for the changes that wewant to make. It doesn’t make it easier, but ultimately it is up to us to make the changes and theshifts.
Jonathan Fields: [00:34:10] And I completely agree. You know, it’s about agency at the end ofthe day. And and how much of it do we want to surrender unwittingly, often what’s interesting isyou have this sort of meta lens, which is the model, you know, like the acronym power. Butwithin each one of those, like the five different core elements, your approach is not to say, let megive you the answers to how to actually get what you want from this element, and then stack theP on top of the O on top of the R and the E, you do the exact opposite, which is you basicallysay, I don’t have the answers here, but what I do have is a set of I think it’s 26 different questionsthat that are split between the different elements that you call power processes. But effectivelythey’re personal inquiries. And essentially you’re saying to somebody, this is up to you. I’m goingto share questions that might help you figure things out. But at the end of the day, it’s up to you toboth step into the question and answer them honestly, and then think about what is theappropriate action for me in response to that, which again, goes back to this agency thing at thecenter of everything.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:35:15] And to me, that is the heart of coaching. You know, there is such adifference between being a consultant where I would say to a client, so you just need to followthis roadmap and then you will, for example, have the house that you want. You know, anarchitect is kind of a consultant in some ways you want. And I’ll tell you exactly what it is thatyou need to do. That is not my role as a coach. My role as a coach is to create a safe space for myclients where I hold no judgment. And so whenever I write a book, it’s never about me tellingpeople what to do because I don’t know their lives. I don’t know their internal and externalresources. And to be honest, I’m sure you sure you’d experience this too. There is so much of theself development world that actually makes people feel worse about themselves, and I neverwant to be a part of that. This idea that, well, you just do what I did and then everything will befine leaves people thinking, well, I couldn’t do that. And it’s like, well, maybe because you arenothing like that person and you don’t have their resources and you don’t have their story. So forme, it’s about sharing my stories, sharing stories from my clients. And then, as you say, askingquestions at the end. So what is a relationship in your life where you feel that you have, youknow, a sense of equality and a sense of power? Or what is the relationship in your life wherethat isn’t the case? And for people to work out for themselves, where they feel powerful in theirlives and where they feel powerless, and where some of that may be purely internal and wheresome of that may be external.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:36:36] Because power is when we as individuals know that we have agencyin our lives. And for some people, the next step is to possibly. And I’m actually not joking whenjoking when I use this example in my my second book, The Gift of Asking. I was working with aclient around asking, and she used to order a sandwich from her local café every day. But shedoesn’t like tomatoes. So every day she’d get this sandwich that had tomatoes, and she wouldtake them out every single day. And we worked on her because she had grown up never askingfor what she needed or wanted. She didn’t want to be a burden, and she did not want to say to thecafe owner, I’d like that sandwich, but without the tomatoes. So part of the work was for her toask for no tomatoes. And the cafe owner said to her, oh my goodness, I was wondering when youwere going to ask because I just have to keep throwing tomatoes away every day. Um, you know,and she was like, I thought you’d be a burden and something like this. So that’s seems like areally small action for her.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:37:32] It was huge. She said she was trembling when she asked thatquestion. Whereas I may work with someone in a C-suite, and it’s a much bigger action that theyneed to take because the presentation that they’re giving, you know, literally will depend onwhether or not their company will get the job, will get the tender. So it’s kind of a bigger ask forthem, but it is still relevant to that person in that season of their lives. I am never pushing a clientsaying, but it should be bigger. You should be doing more. I’ve never been a fan of the phrase dosomething every day that scares you. I’m like, why? Why do I want to send my system intooverdrive every single? Can’t I just sit still? Why do I have to be scared every day? You know, sothere’s always, always the challenge. And that push and pull of progress isn’t always go, go go gogo. Depending on who we are and the life that we’re living. Sometimes progress is stop. Youknow, we know the amount of people that are in burnout on the edge of burnout, coming out ofburnout through the pandemic, before the pandemic. And for some people, progress and growthis to stop and to take stock of the cost of them continuingly going forward in what they what theythink is progress, because we know the body takes us out in the end anyway. If we don’t stop.The body takes us out.
Jonathan Fields: [00:38:49] Yeah, always. And I have experienced that, and I think most peopleprobably have at some point. Pushing too hard. You know, part of what’s embedded in yourapproach of really dropping people into questions rather than answers is also and tell me if thisresonates, because this is from the outside looking in. What I experienced is the notion of testingassumptions. You know, it feels like so many of us, we move through life assuming certainthings are true or not true, and we never test them. And those become constraints. Constraints inour power, constraints in our agency, constraints in our joy and our fun and our pleasure.Everything. And we just assume it is what it is and what was underneath. A lot of these questionsthat you offer up is the notion of testing the assumptions.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:39:34] Yes. And there’s power in owning that. We have them. You know, ashuman beings, we are judgmental. We have to be judgmental, roaming around in our tribes tomake sure is that person safe? What is going to happen? We make snap decisions about peopleall the time. It is so much more powerful to admit that than it is to pretend that we don’t. Becausewhen we admit that, as you say, then we can do the work and go, oh, why do I assume if thatperson looks like that, that their IQ is a certain thing or they’re into a particular thing? You know,one of the things that I love to do, or not so much now, but in my early days, people just assumedthat I loved hip hop. They just assumed that I knew every hip hop song that was going about. Igrew up in Kent. I grew up with foster parents that loved country and western music. I grew upwith Kenny Rogers and Dolly Parton. I’m an absolute country and western fan, although mostpeople might look at me and not assume that. And so I think one of the parts, especially of thesecond power principle of ownership, is that we own all parts of ourselves to say, no, actually, Ilove flowers.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:40:36] I love country and western music. I’m a black woman with a with ashaved head. I have no idea where I am in terms of geography. Most of the time I’m alwaysgetting lost. I don’t like driving, you know? There are so many things that when we share theseparts of ourselves, that’s what connects us with each other. When we can take ownership of ourlight and our shadow, of the things that we know and things that we don’t know of, the parts ofour stories that we’ve been told that don’t actually belong to us, which is really big for refugeeand migrant families. Sometimes the stories that we’ve experienced, those that we’ve created,those that we’ve made up, and when we can integrate them all, we get to stand in our power inthe way that we navigate the world in a way that we don’t. If we leave parts of ourselves like Idid, I used to leave parts of myself outside of rooms so that I was allowed in the room. Now, forme, power is just not stepping into those rooms where I would feel that I would have to do that.
Jonathan Fields: [00:41:27] You’re certainly not the only one. The notion of leaving parts ofyourself outside so that you would be allowed in the room. I think everybody has done that, or atthe very minimum considered doing that. And of course, it’s going to differ depending on whoyou are, depending on your level of status and privilege and history. Some people will probablyfeel more compelled to do that than not, I’m sure. And at the same time, the notion of you givingup or leaving a part of yourself out so that you can be invited in. I think when even when we dothat and then we’re in the room, it becomes apparent pretty quickly that we’re not actually in theroom. Like there is some projection of us, some curated set list of uncancellable qualities that’s inthe room. And if that’s accepted, it actually doesn’t give us the feeling we want to have 100%.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:42:14] And it’s exhausting. That’s the other thing, is that it is exhausting toleave yourself outside of the room, but be physically in the room and then putting on this mask,or this way of being, or this way of speaking, or the thing that you do say, or the thing that youdon’t say, so that you can be in this room, which actually means you’re not even there. No one’sactually meeting you, and you leave feeling less than you did when you walked in because youdidn’t actually bring yourself into that interaction. And I know that for some of us, it is also notsafe to show our whole selves, you know? So it is it’s this dance. And I talk in the book. Thebook isn’t about, you know, 21 Days to Power and then you will always be this all knowingpower forever. The book is about we will give our power away consciously because we are smartand we know that is the best thing to do. Sometimes our power will be taken away from us, andsometimes we will give it away from us by default. Once again, it goes back to awareness. Whenwe become aware and present of why and how and with whom and in what spaces, we then startto rebuild our power in a different way.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:43:15] And then in a week’s time, taken away from us. I have teenagers,Jonathan. I can go on stage, speak to a thousand people, plus feel incredibly in my power andlike I’m a worthy human being in the world contributing. And then I get home and my teenagerwill just give me a glance, and I. My power just leaves me and I watch it go, you know. So it is adance, you know, in the same way that I talk about coaching. Coaching is a dance. I believe thatpower is a dance that it can be. You know, I talk about the power of delight. I talk about thepower of fun in the book. It is not this necessarily this intense, dominant force. It can be beautyand fun and connection, and it can be abundant and we can share it with others. And one thingthat I know for sure is that if I’m truly in my power, I’m not afraid of yours. I don’t need you tomake yourself smaller. I don’t need you to hide in the cupboard so that I can be bigger. I canactually stand alongside you. You can stand alongside me. And together we can have power inthe world to do things in a particular way.
Jonathan Fields: [00:44:15] I love that. And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors.So we’ve sort of dipped into the notion. We’ve gone beyond dipping into the notion of ownership.And that would be the the O letter in the model. So built into the center. The center of this iswisdom, which I think is really interesting because so often I think a lot of us probably feel thatthere is power being exercised in the world that is entirely divorced from wisdom.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:44:50] And there’s a wisdom in knowing that you may or may not be ableto do anything about that, but you can affect the wisdom that you have and the way that youshow up in the world and the way that you contribute to other people. You know, one thing I sayin that chapter is that we tend to outsource our lives. We need to be mindful of not outsourcingour lives. I know that you’ve had incredible, you know, wisdom leaders and seekers and teachersand coaches on this podcast. And I love this podcast, and I listen to podcasts, and I have teachersthat I follow, but it’s all information for me to then process for myself as Kemi, what works forme. What is true for me? What resonates for me. And to actually, once again have thatawareness, to sit with the information and not assume it is right, but to kind of sit with it and testit and trial. And if it doesn’t work, to not assume, well, there’s something wrong with me. Thewisdom is, well, that doesn’t work for me to think that, well, there’s something wrong with me isa sense of powerlessness to say, well, that doesn’t work for me. Brings us back into our power. Sofor me, the wisdom principle is all about not outsourcing our lives to trust and train. And we doneed to train it. It is a practice, as we’ve spoken about. It can be trained out of us from a veryearly age, but to have practices that when we get a message, when our intuition tells ussomething, that we get to a point where we can trust it, that it is real. And then we may want tocheck in with our head around the how or how does this actually work in the world, but toactually trust that innate wisdom, because it will guide us to the life that we want for ourselves.
Jonathan Fields: [00:46:27] It feels like this also really relates back to our earlier conversationaround stillness creating this space, you know, rather than brute forcing. What is the lesson?What is the message? What is the insight like? I need to actually figure this out, which I think isa very Western minded way to do it. Also. And I’m raising my hand because I’m wired that wayto a certain extent. Like do the practice which just creates the space and allows the insight, thewisdom, the deeper truth to emerge from that space. But again, there’s this really tough dynamic,because to do that, as you shared earlier, sometimes it means us sitting in a high level ofdiscomfort at the same time. So we’re sitting in stillness. There’s a lot of discomfort that emerges.It may be just about the reality of who we are and our circumstance. And at the same time, we’retrying to tease out what is the wisdom in this moment that’s being shared with me, that’s beingrevealed to me. It’s complicated.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:47:26] It is complicated. We’re complicated. We are. You know, we arecomplicated and we are multi-layered. And we carry around so much within us. You know, thereare worlds within all of us. And some of those worlds are really scary. And sitting with some ofthese stories that we have, sitting with what our wisdom tells us, you know, our wisdom is goingto say things to us that we don’t want to hear, because it means going against maybe what ourfamilies told us we had to be or should be, or what society is telling us we should or have to be.Why would you leave this particular job over here that gives you these particular benefits or thisparticular status, to go and do this thing that makes sense to nobody at all? You know, one of mybiggest tapping into my wisdom, I was an actor for many years and I loved acting. It was reallyfun. But when I sat with it, I realized that the biggest gift that I could give myself was somebodywho had played a character for a big part of my life, of trying to be someone to fit into spacesthat I didn’t want to spend the rest of my life playing. Characters. You know, I have great friendswho are actors, and I love the craft of acting, but I didn’t want to do it for the rest of my life. AndI had to make a decision. As a young person who was earning great money, who was havingadventures around the world and decide, I had to decide something that made sense to nobody.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:48:47] It didn’t make sense to anybody to leave a successful acting career,to go back to what I also loved at that time, which was chefing and being a baker to kind of goback into obscurity. Some would say in some ways, but I remember that first night of Saturdayservice, you know, the dance. You know, I love using the analogy of metaphor of a dance, but foranyone that’s listening, that is a chef or has been in kitchens, the dance, when you have a busyservice and you’re a team working together and you’re moving in and out of each other andthere’s no words, but you just are creating this incredible energy together. I remember that firstSaturday night, and I remember thinking, this may be a mistake, that I’ve just left this career thatI should have wanted. But my gosh, it feels good right now. And I will work out what and howfrom here. But this is the feeling of being myself in a kitchen at the end of a Saturday nightservice. This feels more like me than the me that I was when I was playing characters in differentroles all the time. That decision was really lonely and very isolating. I’m not sure I’ve ever felt aslonely as I did then, because no one understood why I was doing what I was doing. But I trustedmyself, and I’m glad that I did.
Jonathan Fields: [00:49:57] Yeah, I mean, it’s that wisdom that comes from within that often isnot supported externally until people actually you have a little bit of space and people see what’sgoing on in a very, very past life. I was a big firm lawyer in New York City.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:50:10] Ok
Jonathan Fields: [00:50:10] Like we’re talking decades ago. I had the job that, you know, quote,everybody who went to school with me wanted. I lasted about a year, and then I tapped out, notjust of that job, but of the profession. One of my big concerns was what will people think? But itwasn’t enough. But there was something inside of me that also knew. This is not for me. This isnot my path. And it was really crystal clear. And it took years for some of my friends, my peers,my colleagues to understand what was really happening. What was interesting to me is there wasa departure memo that was sent around this, like 1000 people or whatever it was in the firm, aswas the way that it happened. Whenever someone left the firm and mine effectively said, I’mleaving to go and leave people up mountains and explore the outdoors and start my own thing.And it was the senior partners in the firm who shared notes with me that said, do it. I’m excitedfor you. Please keep me updated on your path. I thought that was a really powerful moment forme to realize that the people who I had normally looked to, to sort of normalize what I What Iwas doing would not normalize it. But the people who were down the path where we were allaspiring to be were telling me, maybe not honor that wisdom. That was a powerful moment forme. Building on the wisdom part. And by the way, I want to remind everyone that within eachone of these different elements, you there are just a whole range of very specific inquiries andquestions that you offer up that I would really strongly encourage folks to drop into and sit with,not just jot out a quick answer, but really sit with and return to, because I thought they’re reallysimple questions often, but really powerful. Like one question under the wisdom section. Whoare you waiting to get permission from? Simple question. Really powerful when you sit with it,because most of us probably don’t think about that, and most of us probably are waiting. As wemove on from wisdom, we drop into that, and that is equality. And this is something that’s beenweaving through our entire conversation, and it’s also something that has become a central.What’s always been a central part of your story, and a really emerging part of what you’reinviting people into? And also, maybe of the five different components of your model of power,the one that may engender the highest level of discomfort for a lot of people.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:52:32] Yeah. And I talk about equality in kind of two ways in the book.And I think about it in this way. I have a feeling that a lot of the listeners to this podcast arecontributing to global inequalities in the way that they can with the resources they have, whetherthat’s time, whether that’s financially where I think a lot of us are very aware of the globalinequalities, and yet we sometimes miss the equality that sits inside every single one of us. Youknow, as I said earlier, I did not grow up thinking that I was equal to the white people around meat all. And so I just thought, well, that’s my place in the world. And so and I have to operate in aparticular way and, you know, the same. Speaking to friends that I identify in different ways,whatever that is, that so many of us have been told that who we are in the world is wrong, andthat we are not equal, and that we have to wait for permission for someone to allow us intospaces or places, or give us the job or the opportunity. And for me, this idea of power that comesfrom the inside is knowing that our humanity is equal to everybody else. So one of the gifts ofthe work I do is that I facilitate groups and Australian business owners because I live inAustralia. But I know The Hunger Project does this around the world. So The Hunger Project is aglobal organization that really works with people on a coaching model.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:53:51] So once again, it gives power and agency to the people are hungrythat are hungry. The model is not we will come and save you. We know what is best for youbecause that’s not powerful except for the person that’s saying that. It’s definitely not powerful forthe receivers. The Hunger Project’s model is all about coaching. And so I will work with, say, 20business owners we go over to. I’ve been to Uganda a few times with The Hunger Project, andwe work with our village partners on the ground to look at what does leadership look like forthem. And an example may be a woman, Barbara, who I’ll never forget, who had a home that shewas living in that had a banana leaf roof in this village that we had visited. And her dream andher commitment and her action was to make sure that by the next time, the next time the rainyseason came, that she had made sure that roof was a corrugated iron roof. And she was soexcited. And she was so committed and she was so ready. Now one of the leaders in the group,the Australian group, and we went back that night to kind of process and facilitate the day. Shewas really emotional and really moved and I checked in with her, what’s going on? And she said,I couldn’t believe how excited and certain that Barbara was about her ability to have this happen,that she would have a tin roof by the time the rainy season came, and how she celebrated herselfand her accomplishment.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:55:04] And she said, I never celebrate myself or my team. We’ve had a highturnover in my company. I’ve never been able to put the finger on why. And I’ve realized becauseI don’t celebrate anything or anyone, I’m go, go go. Now, we could think because Barbara’svision and her goal is to get something that many of us just have. It’s a privilege that we have aroof over our head that doesn’t have rain coming through it. But how she responded to that, herhumanity and her celebration was a mirror to the person that had so many more externalresources than Barbara had, but it still gave her something about her leadership. Another thingfor me is that I’ve had the honor of speaking on a panel on Richard Branson’s Necker Island now,so I’ve been in a space with Richard Branson. I’m in a space with village leaders in Uganda. Andone thing I know for sure, Richard Branson has more external resources than those leaders inUganda. There is no doubt about that. But when it comes to their humanity exactly the same,there is no one that is less or more worthy than the other. They are humans having humanexperiences with challenges, different challenges, but challenges. And I think we miss that weare all humans at our core. None of us are better or worse than the other. Life is complex, it ischallenging, and it can be delightful. And we’re all in it together.
Jonathan Fields: [00:56:29] And as you share and invite people into the notion that if we startfrom that place and then we say that equity, that recognizing this, that resourcing it, that standingbehind it, advocating for it is important to us. We may well also be inviting some level ofdiscomfort, different for different people into our experience. And that’s part of what we’resaying yes to. Yeah. And to say yes to the whole thing because you can’t really parse that out.You know, that is a part of the exploration when you’re actually stepping into this, this place ofnot just inquiry but action taking.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:57:02] No. Exactly. And if I was working with a client to say, for say, forexample, when a client said to me, oh, I just feel like that person is, you know, is less than me.Or they just, you know, they just they don’t have as much status as me or something like that.Once again, I wouldn’t make it about the other person. I say, what is it about that person thatmakes you feel that they’re less than you? Like what? What is that? And it could be, oh, theirEnglish isn’t as good as mine. Or they haven’t been to the same school that I’ve been to. I mean,that was one thing for me that was huge. For many years I did not have the opportunity to go touniversity. My childhood was very much about survival. So I and I know for many people thathave not attended university, it is a huge thing where we make ourselves less equal to those thathave a higher education than we do, because that is part of the narrative of power. If you have auniversity education, then you have a particular status and you get a particular role in the world.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:57:53] And as you say, though, you can have a particular status and aparticular role in the world, and it doesn’t necessarily give you what you want. It gives you alevel of education, but it doesn’t necessarily give you the good life. There are many ways toachieve and build and vision and create a good life, and knowing that we are worthy of that lifeis one of the most important things, and we don’t need to feel worthy every single day, in everysingle moment. Because that isn’t always possible for all of us, but it is feeling worthy enough inthe moment to press send on the email, or feeling worthy enough in the moment to pick up thephone and have the conversation, or to ask for the raise, or to go on the holiday for no reasonother than I want to go there. You know that just being worthy enough in moments and over timethat builds up to know my quality is intact and I’m allowed to be in the world.
Jonathan Fields: [00:58:41] And that really drops us beautifully into the last element of yourmodel, which is responsibility, which which it’s funny because it spells out a word. It’s almostlinear, but I really view this as a circular experience. You know, this is something which justeverything keeps winding around and informing the next thing. And it brings us back to thenotion of agency, which is a lot of where we started our bit of a conversation too. It’s really abouthow are we going to step into this, and owning the fact that it is actually up to us and respondingto that invitation, rather than just waiting for somebody to tell us what the next step is.
Kemi Nekvapil: [00:59:15] 100%. And I, I love responsibility, like I know that for some peopleit can feel like a burden, which is different to having responsibilities. You know, havingresponsibilities can feel burdensome, but having responsibility for your life doesn’t make lifeeasier. Let me just put that caveat in now. Sometimes it makes it harder because you know, noone is coming. And just to quickly tap back into ownership, one of the gifts for me of beingfostered and one of the gifts for me being black in a very predominantly white world, two things.One, I knew no one was coming to save me. I just knew that I knew no one was coming to saveme. And in reading fairy tale books at that time that were all white princesses with white princes,there were no were no princesses that looked like me that were ever saved by princes. So I’venever had this idea that anyone was coming to save me, and that I would need to, in invertedcommas, save myself. The shadow side of that has been that I’ve also had to make sure that Ihaven’t veered too much into. No one can help me. You know, we write the books we need. Somy second book, The Gift of Asking, that asking is a vulnerable act and vulnerability was reallyscary for me because it’s like, well, what’s going to happen if you’re vulnerable and you’re notallowed to have feelings? But for me, responsibility is the gift because it gives us agency in ourlives. We take ourselves out of the passenger seat, hoping that the person that’s driving is goingto go the right way, hoping that they’re going to turn a left when we want them to.
Kemi Nekvapil: [01:00:39] Although we haven’t told them we want to go left, they go right andthen it’s their fault. But it is scary. It’s scary to be responsible for our lives. It’s scary to realizethat no one is going to come and say, hey, you know that job that’s sucking the life out of you?You don’t have to do it anymore. It’s scary to say, hey, do you know this relationship that you’rein where you feel less than who you are. You should probably leave that relationship now. Youknow, most of us know not to tamper with people’s relationships anyway, so there probably is notanyone coming saying that. But we have to take ownership for ourselves and the lives that wewant. And as I said, it is not easy. We have to take the first step. We have to be the one that kindof straps on our shoes and ties up the lace and says, look, I’m not exactly knowing necessarilywhere I’m going, but I know what I’m moving away from. I’m moving away from this idea that Ihave to wait for someone to give me permission to live the life that I want, or the life that I knowthat I deserve, or the life that I’m not even sure if I deserve it or if I want it. But I’m willing togive it a good crack anyway and see what happens.
Jonathan Fields: [01:01:37] Yeah, I mean, that really resonates powerfully. And part of whenyou dive into these specific questions around each element, part of what you’re inviting people toexplore also is in different ways the notion of what actually matters to me. So when we actuallystand in a place of agency and responsibility, and then to actually and as you as you described,you may know what you want to move away from at that particular season. You may not knowwhat you want to move towards, but if you start to this, start into this process of inquiry to askyourself, what actually matters to me that I feel like is the thing that starts to reveal the what am Imoving toward? Because it helps reveal like what is worth mattering to me and what is worthinvesting energy in.
Kemi Nekvapil: [01:02:20] And that’s what I love so much about coaching and questions,because there are so many different angles of which people can explore the answers forthemselves. So there is there’s what’s matters. What matters to me? There’s how do I want tofeel? Just working with a client recently. How do you want to feel? And her answer was, I wantto feel. You know, she’s coming to the end of a business that she’s been working in for nearly 20years. So how do you want to feel? She says, I want to feel free and at ease. I said, how do youcurrently feel? The exact opposite. She was like, I feel the exact opposite. But that then led us toa path of what? Feeling free and feeling ease would be. And it means making some reallydifficult, challenging decisions. But now she knows how she wants to feel in the world. Anotherone as well is what don’t you want? Sometimes it’s really hard, especially for women, to identifywhat it is they want for themselves, because we have been socialized to know what everyonearound us wants, to make sure that we are available all the time, and to make sure that nobody isput out by any needs or wants that we may have. So sometimes asking a woman, what do youwant? She actually has no idea. Sometimes the way in is what don’t you want? And then that canbe the path in. That can be the first step. Questions are so powerful because it gives agency to theother person, and we get to be curious about ourselves. We move away from this is me, this iswhat I do. That’s just who I am. And of course, as we get older, there are certain parts of ourpersonalities that are very much cemented and set in stone. But we have to be careful that thosephrases and that and that narrative doesn’t make our world and our lives really, really small.
Jonathan Fields: [01:03:57] Um, so powerful in this context, in the conversation around powerand the conversation around agency and responsibility and wisdom and ownership and all theseamazing things. And in this container of Good Life Project., if I offer up the phrase to live a goodlife, what comes up?
Kemi Nekvapil: [01:04:12] To give ourselves spaces to be present in our lives, whether that’swatching a butterfly, whether that’s being present in the relationships that really matter to us,whether it’s being present in our bodies, but creating spaces and places where we can havemoments of presence and obviously grow flowers, whether it’s one pot because it reminds usevery day that there is beauty and things die and things grow and things happen, and yet theflowers always return. So I also think, you know, gardening or flowers also is a really greatmeasure.
Jonathan Fields: [01:04:45] Thank you so much gratitude to both of our guests today. What apowerful exploration into reclaiming our sovereignty and building lives of authenticity. Vivianshowed us how getting financially empowered provides the choices to walk away from situationsthat no longer serve us and can be redefined, power itself guiding us to embody presence andownership, wisdom, equality, and responsibility in order to fully inhabit our truth. I hope theirinsights inspire you to let go of disempowering narratives aligned with those core values, andtake courageous action towards the life you truly want to live. If you love this episode, be sure tocatch the full conversation with today’s guests. You can find the link to each of those episodes inthe show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers LindseyFox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez. Kristoffer Carter crafted ourtheme music and special thanks to Shelley Adelle Bliss for her research on this episode. And ofcourse, if you haven’t already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project. in yourfavorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, andchances are you did. Since you’re still listening here, would you do me a personal favor? A sevensecond favor and share it? Maybe on social or by text or by email, or even just with one person?Just copy the link from the app you’re using and tell those you know, those you love, those youwant to help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together withmore ease and more joy. Tell them to listen, then even invite them to talk about what you’ve bothdiscovered. Because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action,that’s how we all come alive together. Until next time, I’m Jonathan Fields, signing off for GoodLife Project.