In a world that often feels hopelessly out of control, Mel Robbins, the voice behind the #1 global phenomenon “The Let Them Theory,” shares life-altering wisdom to help you flourish despite the turmoil. With authenticity and empathy, Mel invites you on a profoundly inspiring journey to redefine your boundaries and embrace radical acceptance.
Discover how the simple yet revolutionary practice of “letting them” acts as a force field against the relentless noise and frustrations that drain your energy. By refusing to expend your precious life force on circumstances beyond your influence, you open the door to channeling that power inward, towards what you can control – your thoughts, actions, and mindset.
But “The Let Them Theory” is more than a mere coping strategy. It’s an awakening to your true potential, a pathway to lasting inner peace, no matter how turbulent your surroundings. As Mel eloquently illustrates through her own transformative experiences, this counterintuitive approach paradoxically empowers you to create real, positive change in your life and the world around you.
Whether you’re struggling with relationship conflicts, workplace tensions, or that endless inner voice of self-doubt, Mel’s compassionate guidance will illuminate a new way forward. One rooted in radical self-acceptance and an unshakable commitment to investing your energy in what genuinely matters to you.
You can find Mel at: The Let Them Theory | Instagram | Episode Transcript
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Episode Transcript:
Mel Robbins: [00:00:00] Spend your time and energy on the things that actually matter to you,and not waste it on the stupid shit that currently drains it.
Jonathan Fields: [00:00:09] Mel Robbins is a true phenomenon, going from hitting rockbottom, being nearly $1 million in debt and suffering debilitating anxiety, to becoming a leadingvoice on change and motivation for millions of people, along with the world’s leading brands.Come to her for advice. Her videos and top ranked podcasts have billions of views, and she soldmillions of books, including her number one New York Times bestseller, The Leitholm Theory,which invites people to let go of the need to control others and reclaim the power and agency thatyou have in your own life.
Mel Robbins: [00:00:41] This is the single biggest moment of my career. I’m very clear that it’sa moment.
Jonathan Fields: [00:00:47] Take me a little bit deeper into this.
Mel Robbins: [00:00:49] People have a lot of stress right now and they’re looking for places toaim it.
Jonathan Fields: [00:00:56] What’s your take on what that’s actually about?
Mel Robbins: [00:00:59] You can’t take control of your life until you stop trying to control orgaslight yourself into thinking you can control anything out there.
Jonathan Fields: [00:01:09] Where is the line between letting people do what they want to doand allowing harm to happen?
Mel Robbins: [00:01:19] Great question. So let’s start with. I can answer what the disruption andwhat it’s been like in so many different aspects, because this is the single biggest moment of mycareer. I’m very clear that it’s a moment. And I keep saying to the folks that work with me, myteam members, everybody, this is not normal. This happens once a decade in terms of an idea,catching fire and being the right idea at the right moment in time, exactly when a large number ofpeople are ready to hear the idea and want the idea and then share the idea. And so even thoughyou and I know how to launch a successful book, we know how to market something. It isabsolutely impossible to have engineered what has actually happened. And so one of the waysthat this has been very disruptive is to recognize that I am in a deeply spiritual experience whereI feel that this book is not a book. It is part of Something so much bigger than me. So muchbigger than a book, so much bigger than any individual person that I feel like I am in theslipstream of spreading a message that has been true since the history of time, and remindinghumanity of what each one of us knows to be true. That even in the darkest moments in your life,there are still places where you can find light, even when it seems that all hope is lost or youhave nothing, everything is out of your control.
Mel Robbins: [00:03:38] There are things that you can control, and this is not a new message. Imean, if you’re a fan of stoicism or the Serenity Prayer or Buddhism or radical acceptance ordetachment theory, or, you know, Viktor Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning, or you read any ofthe writing of Doctor Martin Luther King Jr. These are all teachings, philosophies, spiritualtruths about the fundamental aspect of being a human being, which is anytime you try to controlsomething that is outside of you, it creates stress inside of you. And true power lies in focusingon your response to what’s happening outside of you. I just happened to come along with amodern version of this, inspired by my daughter yelling at me at, you know, my son’s high schoolprom as I was micromanaging something. And these two words let them. And the two words letme have come into existence packaged the way that I packaged it at a moment in time where Ithink people aren’t just going through a transition. I think the average person would say to you, Iam stressed out. I feel like things that I used to rely on are spiraling out of control. I’m full ofconcern about where the world is headed. There’s somebody in my family that I’m worried about.I’m worried about finances. I’m worried about I. That there just seems to be so much out therethat the message that actually you do have some control, you do have power.
Mel Robbins: [00:05:10] And being reminded of the simple little things that you can do to stopgiving power to things you can’t control, and take your power back and focus on your attitudeand the things that you do or don’t do in response to the world around you. I think this is exactlywhen we all are desperate for something we can hold on to, to remind us that yes, we are morepowerful than what it feels like right now. And so on a spiritual level. Jonathan, I feel like I amhaving a spiritual experience. I feel like I am surrounded by ancestors. I am surrounded byhistory. I’m accompanied by spiritual teachers and philosophy that this is so much bigger thanme. I just, for whatever reason, in the person that was tapped to put this thing into the slipstreamof consciousness right now. And so on one level, I’ve been thinking a lot about how to actuallybe present for this moment, because I am very well aware that this is a moment. In fact, I’vegotten to the point where I’m like, kind of nervous to get on a plane because I’m like, the onlyway this gets bigger is if I go down in a plane and then people are talking about it like, youknow, after my death, and I’m kind of not kidding about that. And I guess the reason why I saythat is because it has been like a rocket to launch a book on Christmas Eve, and to have itbecome the single most successful self-help book leadership success relationship book everlaunched.
Mel Robbins: [00:06:45] It is on track to be the most successful non-fiction book ever launchedto have. That happened at a moment in time where people aren’t reading as much. They’re not asinterested in this stuff. Have people actually picking up a book and reading or listening to it,sharing it with family members, and turning toward a message that can help them feel a little bitbetter about themselves, or feel a little bit more empowered. That’s freaking unbelievably cool.And that’s not just me. That’s something bigger than me. So I keep thinking of this image,Jonathan, that I’m sitting on an airplane, it’s going 500 miles an hour, and the velocity of thisthing is something I don’t understand, but I’m experiencing it. But my job is to sit in the seat onthe plane, keep my feet on the ground. As I’m sitting in the seat, have my cup of coffee, talk tomy friend Jonathan and occasionally look out the window and take in the view, because I knowthat there will be an arc to this. I know that to let them. Theory is the legacy I’m going to leaveon this earth, and kind of knowing you’re in that moment. It’s a very weird experience. And sothat’s one thing that has been very disruptive. I think the second thing that has been wild is that inaddition to the book launching the podcast, which I’ve been doing for two years, has just like fivein growth, and we hit number one on Apple and on Spotify unseated Joe Rogan.
Mel Robbins: [00:08:18] I stayed there for an entire month, and what I found to be fascinating isthat I’ve been in the top 20 podcasts in the world since we started. Basically nobody cared. It’slike there I nobody would write an article. No, nobody. If you Google the Mel Robbins podcast,the first article that you’ll find about the podcast was by time magazine in October 4th monthsago. But other than that, the only other article written about my podcast was by a blogger thatworked for a radio station on Cape Cod. And it turns out the only reason why I know this isbecause we googled it once we found this article, and it turns out I hired that guy without evenrealizing. And he’s now on my team. And so when you hit number one, in a world that is full ofuncertainty and stress and conspiracy theory and negativity, and there’s something about peopleneeding to be against something, it was shocking how almost overnight, the negativity, thetakedown, the amount of just garbage flying around social media that, you know, my husbandthat I just caught Chris cheating on me and his lipstick on his collar, and they had takenphotographs from a photo from an appearance I had done on Jay Shetty’s podcast, and then putAI over it, like just the amount of complete garbage, the lies being spread, the rumors.
Mel Robbins: [00:09:50] Because now all of a sudden, when you are in that much positive light,there is this counteracting force that has negative come and rise to the surface. And so it’s been avery interesting experience to really have to use to let them theory and to not just use it in thecontext of my day to day life, but to use it in the context of lies that get spread about you rumors,negativity, like all that kind of stuff at a scale that I’ve never experienced. And so that’s beensomething that’s been very disruptive, not just to me, but to my team, because, you know, it’s notjust I’m not the only one that kind of is doing the podcast and writing. We have a team of people.And so when people start, I don’t like that woman and she’s a this. And, you know, I heard thisabout, like, all this, you’re just like, whoa, people have a lot of stress right now. And they’relooking for places to aim it. And so it’s it’s been amazing to see both the positive. But whatcomes with that level of responsibility and that size of a megaphone, if you will, is when youspread that much light. There is a counteracting force that tries to take it out. And so it’s beenvery interesting to notice that’s been not disruptive, but just I’ve been used and let them and letme and not giving time and energy to it and still protecting myself from it.
Mel Robbins: [00:11:19] And I’m not saying that like I’m whining, I’m just kind of explainingthat. I think for anybody that tries to make a change in their life or is trying to do somethinggood, even if you’re simply wanting to move or you simply want to change your career, or youwant to leave a relationship, you started by talking about transition. That is a positive force inyour life to want to change something about your life. And what you will notice is that there willbe a corresponding negative response to it by the people around you. And there is just this truthabout the balance of that in life, because your positive change makes people question wherethey’re at, it makes them question what they thought was going to happen. It’s easier to questionyou than to just sit with the uncertainty of what your changes are going to mean for them. And soit’s been interesting to experience that on scale. But I think that the main thing for me is that I’vejust had this real clarity because I’ve spent my entire life like a lot of people, Jonathan, and we’vetalked a lot about this, and you have been a North Star for me in this regard. I’ve not beeneffective recently at following your example, but I have certainly suffered from the disease ofmore.
Mel Robbins: [00:12:44] I need to do more, you know, like I need to do this. I need to do that.Okay, now that this is working, we got to add more on. We got to do more. We got to get bigger.We got to grow more. And. I have gotten to the point where I feel so satisfied by exactly whatI’m doing right now. The podcast and the let them theory. And I don’t want to do more. And it’s avery different thing to look at your life. And when you think about the transition that you may bewanting to go through, understanding when you’re building something because you want tocreate something new versus adding more because you feel you need to, and that’s what’s drivingthe transition. This like, need to do more, the need to be bigger, the need to do this. For me, it’sbeen a very profound experience to realize that I’ve just done the best work of my entire life. Ifeel like a, you know, an athlete that’s retiring. I want to enjoy the impact that the Leitholmtheory is having in people’s lives, and really just focus on doing it well, because I’ve been thekind of person that just jumps to the next thing and jumps to the next thing and jumps to the nextthing. Like, what would it look like if my transition wasn’t doing more? It wasn’t reinvention inthe way that I think about it.
Mel Robbins: [00:14:10] What if my transition is actually reinventing myself to becomemasterful at just doing the podcast and really seeing the Leitholm theory book and what thisbecomes through for the next decade? Like, what if I do that and I allow myself and give myselfthe permission to really master something I’ve never been good at, which is creating systems andrhythm and a predictable life, and not Just chase the next thing. And so those are kind of threeways that at least, you know, from a spiritual level being very present that this is not this is a veryspiritual experience for me. And feeling very humbled to be a part of something bigger. And thesecond thing being this kind of awakening that no matter what you do in your life, whether it’s asmall personal change or more positivity in your life, there will always be some sort of negativething that rises in response because of the balance of stuff. And I’m just experiencing it at a scalethat I’ve never experienced it before. And very happy to report that the Latin theory is helping meto just let people say what they’re going to say, believe what they’re going to believe, do whatthey’re going to do. And let me just focus on what I know to be true and who I am. And the thirdthing being just this epiphany, that reinvention and transition for me Is choosing not to jump onall the opportunity, because when you’re all of a sudden everywhere.
Mel Robbins: [00:15:49] Guess what? Everybody wants to jump in. Everybody wants you to doa supplement and do this thing or do the other thing. And I’m very clear that I actually want to dosomething that you’ve been very good at, which is stay true to your values and resist the urge todo more, because that’s what you think you should do. Do the things that align with what youactually value. And for me, that’s my family. And actually seeing my friends and spending timein, you know, beautiful part of the world that I live in here in Vermont and enjoying themountains just like you enjoy the mountains and really keeping in mind that, you know, thepodcast and the let them theory is not my identity. This is a job and it’s an important job, but thesuccess of it isn’t a reflection on my worth as a person, because it’s the work that I do. My worthas a person is based on how I show up every day and who I am in my life and with myrelationships. And so I think those are the kind of the three big things that I’m thinking about.And of course, I’m just like, absolutely, I’m pinching myself. I wrote this book with our oldestdaughter. The fact that people are loving it, the fact that it’s helping so many people, the fact thatit’s making relationships better, I just think that’s so cool.
Jonathan Fields: [00:17:16] And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors. There areso many things I’d love to get kind of deep in into there, but the last point that I don’t want tobrush by because, you know, as we’ve talked about, I’ve been in this, what I call my two by 20, Iwill turn 60 this year. So a couple of years ahead of you. And when I turned 58, I said, you know,I’m two years away from like an interesting age. And why don’t I spend two years really justreflecting and running a series of experiments and thinking like, how do I want to step into thenext season of contribution and life? What do I want to bring with me? What do I want to leavebehind? What do I want to bring with me, but differently? So the way you described it, I think isreally fascinating. Like when you think about major transitions or where you’re at right now, asyou know, in the past it was always like more and more different. And now you’re in thismoment where it’s like, what if it’s this? But deeper? I think that’s such a it’s such an interestingoption that we don’t often visit. Okay. So what am I closing the door on? What’s the next thingrather than what? Have I actually strip away some of the things that I’m doing now? Just leavethe essence of the work that somehow I’m connected to and just really pour myself into that.Like, does that count as, like, me evolving into the next best version of myself? Whateverhowever you want to phrase it. We so often don’t look. I think we’re conditioned for the more andthe different rather than what about the lesson? The deeper. And it sounds like that’s a lot of whatyou’re exploring now.
Mel Robbins: [00:18:51] Yeah, it’s a great insight. And the thing that came to mind immediatelyis that’s also what’s happened in my marriage. Like I, I heard somebody say, I don’t rememberwho said this, so I don’t know who to give credit to. But somebody else said this thing that kindof casually said, you know, second marriages are amazing, especially when they’re with the firstperson you’re married. And I think that there is this obsession where when we get tired or boredor frustrated or a little stuck in the patterns of where we’re at or used to something, we think thatthe answer is something new. And I, for one, have absolutely always just gone to the next thing,always just gone to the next thing, like the shiny penny. It’s like exhilarating. It’s fun. It’s. Andthere’s lots of science around this. I mean, breaking your routine and doing new things, like.
Jonathan Fields: [00:19:45] We love the novelty of it.
Mel Robbins: [00:19:47] We love the novelty. We love the like wash of chemicals in the body.Like. And it feels like you’re doing something new because you are. But what you just said isdoing less, but doing it in a deeper way, stripping away the bells and whistles and really focusingon what really matters to me and what do I want my life to feel like right now. And for me, Ithink that’s been a theme without me realizing it for the past kind of almost four years. And, youknow, you’ve been on a very similar trajectory because you guys left and went to Colorado andcompletely changed the way your day to day life looks. We did the same thing, leaving a areaoutside of Boston and going up to a rural area in Vermont. And just that change of having aalmost less like. I remember when we first moved, the change was so startling because I startedto realize, my God, talk about more, more, more. I spent I would literally popcorn through mydays running to, you know, a Walmart or wanting to this place or that place just because I could.And then you get to a place like where you live now in the mountains and there’s nowhere to goto. And so you start to realize, wait a minute. As I strip away less, I’m stuck with myself. And Ithink that’s also why I haven’t done the deeper focus, because it’s easier for me to jump to thenext thing and kind of stay on the surface and get masterful there and then jump to the nextthing.
Jonathan Fields: [00:21:28] I think it’s easier for both of us, and it also it distracts us from goingdeeper into the core, which often means that we need to address things. We’re were reallyuncomfortable with. And so we just keep doing the next thing because it stops us from having todo that work.
Mel Robbins: [00:21:43] Yeah, totally. So no, that’s kind of it for me. Like I it’s been it’s been anexhilarating ride. It’s taken me 15 years of just army crawling my way through the muck to get toa point where something this extraordinary could happen in this concentrated moment, and that Ipersonally, as a human being, have done enough work on myself that I can stay steady andpresent as I am navigating something of this global scale, because I’ve never navigated anythinglike this before.
Jonathan Fields: [00:22:21] So one of the things you shared earlier in our conversation is thisnotion that, you know, well, you gave a specific type of languaging to this idea in your book. Theidea itself is of you have to let them theory. It’s not new. It’s been around for thousands of yearsBuddhism and non-attachment and Attachment. Stoicism and Releasing control, Existentialismand freedom, Sufism and surrender CBT.
Mel Robbins: [00:22:44] Even mentioning things that I’m like, yeah, you’re right. I guess weshould put that like you’re right. Like the more it’s out there, the more people see the connection.So you’re absolutely you’re even broadening it right now.
Jonathan Fields: [00:22:52] Yeah. So like here’s my curiosity. So like these are concepts we’veknown for time immemorial. Right. There’s and there’s a reason that that this basic idea of like,you know, control what you can control and let go of the things that you can control because theopposite of that is suffering defined. This is not new knowledge for any of us. And yet thousandsof years of being, having it repeated to us and, you know, like probably hundreds of traditionsand different voices and people, we still walk through the day deeply driven to controleverything and everyone that we can possibly control. What’s your take on what that’s actuallyabout?
Mel Robbins: [00:23:33] Well, based on the extremely smart people that I interviewed as I waswriting this and researching it and looking at my experience using it and people’s experience thatfollow me who had been using it. It just comes down to hard wiring. You know, we have afundamental need to be in control of our decisions, of what we’re going to eat, of what we thinkour future is, of what’s happening at work. And the reason we have this need is because it makesus feel safe. If we kind of feel like we can scout around and we don’t spot danger, then we cantake a deep breath and we can rest. The problem, as I see it, is twofold. Number one, the problemthat the let them theory primarily addresses is the fact that there is one thing on the planet you’renever going to be able to control, and that’s other human beings. You can’t control what theythink, say, do, feel you’re just never going to. But the problem is that their behavior pisses youoff. It worries you. It frustrates you. It stresses you out. You want them to change. And soanother person’s behavior actually triggers your feeling of being out of control. And the mistakethat I’ve always made is I just instinctually then step across the line and think, the way that I’mgoing to feel safe again is by trying to control what that other person is doing, feeling, or saying.And then the problem is that I’m now bumping up against that other person’s need to be incontrol of themselves.
Mel Robbins: [00:25:06] And so I didn’t like I think we all kind of know this, but we get intothis very frustrating battle for autonomy, control and agency. And we’ve been in it since we werelittle kids with our parents. Now, this is primarily a book about adult relationships, but the waythat we learned that you love people by controlling them is because we were parented when wewere little. Kids and parents do need to be in control of what a child is doing and eating and theirpersonal safety and lots of other things. But there comes a time where a child becomes a youngand adult, and now they want their autonomy. And none of us have ever learned truly how to gothrough life. Or at least I haven’t. How to go through life and focus on what I can control and notallow the things that I can’t control to stress me out or make me angry or waste my time like Iknew this instinctually, but I never knew how to apply it. And I think the second thing that’sgoing on, and why this message is exploding right now, is because of a couple of factors.Number one, I know that you interview a lot of the same, especially medical experts andincredible thought leaders that I talk to on my podcast, but it is apparent from the medical expertsthat coming out of the pandemic, over 83% of people are in a chronic state of fight or flight.
Mel Robbins: [00:26:47] Chronic. And I think everybody underestimates the fact that if 80% ofpeople are in fight or flight all the time, that has an impact on how people vote. It has an impacton how they show up at work. It has an impact on how they talk to you when they come homefrom work. It has an impact on how they deal with customer service reps. And we’ve all noticedthis uptick in hostility and a lack of kindness and not being civil to one another and the inabilityto have mature conversations. And I personally believe that one of the reasons why this is true isbecause 80% of people are just locked in the state of fight or flight. And when that’s the case, youactually cannot bring your prefrontal cortex online because the amygdala has hijacked howyou’re operating. And so we are in a moment where whether it’s because of the headlines or it’sbecause people are mainlining social media, or it’s because you’re in a state of fight or flight, orit’s because of the state of the world that people are gripped and are on edge. The amygdala isfiring, and so people feel unsafe, which means they’re going to start to try to control everything,and they’re going to feel out of control in their lives. And then you don’t know how to actuallyget back into your body and feel peaceful and back in control. And so along comes my simpletheory, the let them theory.
Mel Robbins: [00:28:16] The more you let other people live their life, the better your life gets.But most importantly, what it does is this when you say let them. Anytime somebody frustratesyou or you’re in traffic or long lines, or you see that and you go let them. What’s interesting aboutthat, Jonathan, is that what you’re doing is when you say those two words, you are actuallyrecognizing this is out of my control. Therefore, it is not worth my time and energy. You are alsoputting up a force field, and you’re preventing all of those little micro moments where somebodypisses you off or frustrates you, or traffic backs up and it floods you with stress, which thenbrings the amygdala online, which then drains your energy and your time. It prevents that fromhappening. And so what’s starting to happen for people is they learn about, you know, saying letthem and saying let me is they’re starting to feel peaceful. They’re starting to feel a layer ofprotection, that what’s happening out there doesn’t actually have to interfere with how I feel inhere. And, you know, one of the interesting things that one of the experts said to me is I was, youknow, researching all this was, you know, Mel, nobody stops to think that you actually can’t getsober until you stop drinking. The same thing is true about taking control of your life. You can’ttake control of your life until you stop trying to control or gaslight yourself into thinking you cancontrol anything out there.
Mel Robbins: [00:29:45] And you also can’t get your power back until you first recognize thatyou’ve been giving power to people’s opinions and to their inconsiderate behavior, and you givepower to the headlines, and you give power to social media. That’s why you don’t feel powerful,because you didn’t realize you gave it all away by allowing it to impact you and stress you out.And so when you say let them, it’s not being passive. You’re not allowing people to trample allover you. That’s already happening, by the way. You’re not letting the government do whateverthe government’s doing. No. You’re actually recognizing and seeing things exactly as they are,maybe even for the first time. Like I’m going to say, let them in response to the governmentbecause this stuff’s already happened. And by the way, if I burn through all my energy screamingat the news every night, or just mainlining the news and then gossiping with friends about howbad it is, do I have energy for the second part? Let me remind myself that I still have power.There are things I can do here. I absolutely can do things. I can get involved in my community. Ican get involved with the ACLU. I can call my congressperson. I can organize like. But if youare burning through all your energy by allowing the outside world to stress you out, you will nothave the energy and time to tap into your power to actually make meaningful change happen.
Jonathan Fields: [00:31:09] I think that makes a lot of sense. I remember talking to beautifultravel writer Pico Iyer a little while back, and you know, Pico has spent the better part of his lifetraveling with the Dalai Lama as his companion. He met him when he was a young child throughhis dad, who was an actual professional philosopher. And, you know, he studied deeply andlearned from him, studied deeply Tibetan Buddhism and all sorts of different traditions. And hereally says, you know, we’re having this conversation about change and change internally, butalso change in society and culture. And he’s like, you know, like the biggest myth is that, youknow, like, we’re actually any one person is capable of doing more than creating change withinthemselves. Now, maybe once we start there, we can affect a ripple that starts to expand beyondthat, you know? But it’s this notion of we all, so many of us look to the external things that wecan do without actually starting with, how can I change my own internal experience? First andforemost, because oftentimes the external things are more obvious. They’re more check box.They’re more like, oh, I can do that. I can spend that money, I can show up at this thing. And theinternal stuff is a lot murkier and a lot harder, so we kind of avoid it.
Mel Robbins: [00:32:20] You know, Jonathan, it reminds me of something that just happened.I’ll be quick about this, but I since discovering this and saying let them. I’ve been astonished byhow much more peaceful I am. And I’m also astonished, and I feel kind of sad about how for thefirst 54 years of my life, I just allowed myself to be completely rattled by the world around meand other people’s moods and just so much stupid stuff. And I had this experience this weekendwhere I was visiting some family, and it was fascinating because for the few days I was there,every time we were in the car, angry at the driver in front of us, the news is on in the morning,the news is on at night. There’s griping about the news in the headlines. There’s like just constantnegative agitation in response to every thing and every one and all the stuff. The lines are longand this person’s this. And it was this really just profound experience because I realized that’s alot of what my energy probably was like. And it is completely accessible to all of us to have avery different existence by simply protecting yourself from allowing all of that to agitate you.And so when you shared that story about how the change starts from within and that ripple effectthat it can have, like from a pure energetic level, that piece that you can access for yourself andhow powerful it feels to know that you’re steady no matter what happens around you.
Mel Robbins: [00:34:19] And then what happens when you bring that into your job? You bringthat into your family. You bring that into your day to day life, everything starts to change and yourecognize something really profound, which I know, you know, because of your spiritualpractices and because of everything that you talk about and that you teach. We give so muchpower to all the big stuff out here. And yes, they do have power, but we miss the extraordinarypower that you have through your energy and through the way that positive and peaceful andgrounded energy actually settles people around you. And that’s one of the things that I’ve beenthe most moved by in terms of the impact that sang Let Them and saying Let Me has reallyreminded me of because once you start to feel peaceful now, you want to protect it. Once youstart to feel, you know, like like your time back and your energy, now you want to protect it,right?
Jonathan Fields: [00:35:20] And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors. I want torevisit something that you said, though, and it relates to this as well, which is this notion of and Iimagine you’ve been asked this question before. I know you have actually, because let’s say youadopt this state of mind, this orientation. Where is the line between letting people do what theywant to do, surrendering a sense of control and just focusing on what you’re capable of andallowing harm to happen? Either harm to you because somebody is actually treating you in a waythat is causing harm, or has caused harm or harm to those around you or the world around you,or your community around you. Take me a little bit deeper into this great question.
Mel Robbins: [00:36:07] So let’s start with somebody outside of you. You know, I personally amone of these people that always gets involved. Like I have the first responder gene. So it is verydifficult for me to just let anyone do Anything. And part of the problem with people that harmthemselves or do harmful things is they don’t do it in front of you. Like it’s pretty easy ifsomebody’s doing something in front of you in terms of the thing that they’re doing, they’reprobably already doing it. So the let them part is not I’m allowing it. It’s recognizing that this is avery serious thing that’s happening. I’m letting them reveal that they are in danger and pain.We’ve all been in a situation where a friend has drank too much, right? And then we argue aboutthe keys. But what ultimately happens? A lot of people actually back down and just let themdrive. I’m not recommending that, but here’s what I am saying. I can’t actually make the call forsomebody because what to let them theory does is it actually forces you. First you say let them.Right? I’m going to let them get really drunk here and I’m going to let them like go on and onabout how they oh, I’m fine to of drive because they’re already saying it, but then I’m going to goto step two. Let me decide based on my values, based on my character, based on my morals,what I’m going to do. And if you value someone’s safety or you value someone else’s safety onthat road, then let me take the damn keys and let me put up with your bullshit.
Mel Robbins: [00:37:42] When you start acting out and mouthing off to me and let me put youon the couch at my house, or drive you home and let me do the thing that a lot of us actuallydon’t do because we don’t want to deal with it. Once the person starts mouthing off. And so tome, what it sets up is a moral dilemma for every person, because the power isn’t in stopping theother person. The power is in the let me part, let me decide how I’m going to handle this. Thatmight mean calling the police. It might mean taking the keys. It might be calling somebody’sparents or calling somebody’s spouse. It might mean not making excuses for somebody thatyou’re not going to call your adult kid in and blame the fact that they don’t want to go to workbecause they’re hungover for the fifth morning in a row. On the fact that you’ve got family plans,you’re going to let them learn from life. And so I think every situation is different. It’s muchclearer if somebody is harming themselves or someone else in front of you. But the problem witha lot of the people in our lives and the damage that they’re doing to themselves as others, is theyhide it from you. And so you can use let them in a very important way, which is people’sbehavior reveals the truth. And too often we listen to the words coming out of somebody’s mouththe apologies, the promises that they’re not going to do it again.
Mel Robbins: [00:39:06] The description that it’s not that serious. I didn’t really mean it. No, Idon’t need to help. You know, I threatened to take my life, but I didn’t really mean it. No, I don’tneed help. I’m fine. And so you have to look at the behavior. That’s to let them part. Let themreveal where they’re at, how much they’re struggling, whether or not they’re thinking clearly. Andthen let me understand and remind myself there’s only three things I can control. I can controlwhat I think about this. I can control what I do and don’t do, and I can control how I process myfeelings about what’s happening. That’s all you got. And so you use this as a tool to remindyourself that if somebody’s going to do something, they’re going to do it. But the power is in thelet me part. I get to choose what I’m going to do about it. I get to choose when I step in and whenI don’t, I get to choose when I am supporting or I’m not. I get to choose what I pay for and what Idon’t. I get to choose if I’m getting involved or not. I mean, this is why if we’re at a party,Jonathan, and I’m not serving you the alcohol and you go and drink and drive, that I can’t bearrested for not stopping you. We don’t hold people accountable to that. I actually think to letthem theory forces you to start questioning whether or not you’re going to hold yourselfaccountable to it. Does that make sense?
Jonathan Fields: [00:40:27] It makes sense. And I guess the other scenario that I think is in myhead, and I would imagine a lot of younger communities has, is what about that scenario whereyou feel like somebody is doing harm to you? Not necessarily talking about physical harm,although that could be an unfortunate case. But what about a scenario? You’re at work, you havea colleague who’s constantly, quote, taking credit, constantly quote backstabbing and the you’reboth, you know, and it’s affecting not just the way that you feel when you’re at work with them,but you can see them actually building social currency, social capital, political currency withinthe organization and in your mind, taking opportunities that really were yours. You know, sothese are just like two different scenarios. So when you perceive somebody else and I guess thisis really where the corollary to let me side becomes super important.
Mel Robbins: [00:41:17] It’s everything everybody loves. Let them because you feel. Becauseyou’re smug. Let them, you know, let them go out without me, you know, let them do whatthey’re going to do. Like there’s a superiority thing which, honestly, is super effective indetaching from your emotions. Because if your emotions are one that you’re hurt or you’re thevictim or something is happening where you’re wronged, you are beaten down by your emotions.And so part of the power of saying let them is you actually feel superior to the people you’resaying it about. You feel better than the people that are walking slow. You feel better than thepeople that didn’t invite you. But let’s take the scenario that you’re talking about because it’s anexcellent one, because this is never about what’s right or wrong. It’s about where’s the power andwhere should you focus so that you have power. Does that make sense? Yeah. So in this situationnot fair. Not okay. And when you say let them, you’re not just going let them. And shruggingyour shoulders, oh, I guess I’m screwed. Let them know you’re saying it with a little bit of a letthem, let them like I see what you’re doing. You’re it’s almost like you allow it without allowingit, because you’re forcing yourself to see somebody as they are. And oftentimes to truly see it asit is black and white for the first time and for real. Like let them try to take credit, let them try tobuild the social currency, let them try to do this to me.
Mel Robbins: [00:42:56] And then let me remind myself, I actually have power here. There’s alot I can do. And so there. And when you recognize that you do have power, you stop wasting itby being upset and wounded and victimized by the other person. And you pull the power backand you start to focus on, well, what can I do? And when you start to say to yourselves, well, Ido, I have what I think about this and I think this is bullshit. I have the things I can do, and what Ican do is I can recognize that what this person is masterful at is they actually are masterful atmaking their contribution knowns and taking credit. And I’m shitty at it. So I let me start to speakup, let me start to write my boss an email at the end of every week claiming the contributions I’mmaking. Let me speak up in meetings when this asshole is taking credit for my work and say,well, actually, Mike, that’s not how it went. Sally was the lead on that, and I spent 60 hoursworking on it, and now you’re taking credit for it. That’s not how that went. Call them out. Andso there are things you can do. You can also get a different job. You’re not stuck. But the morethat you focused on what the other person is doing, and the more you allow their behavior to beatyou down, The less energy, time and power you’re going to feel internally, and you’re not goingto see all the things that you could or can do.
Mel Robbins: [00:44:23] If you choose to try to change the situation for the better. And I alsowant to say one other thing because, you know, that’s an example that’s frustrating. But there’salso examples where you might have somebody that you’re in a relationship with and you’restarting to realize they have a narcissistic personality style. You might have somebody in yourfamily that has an extraordinarily challenging behavior. You might have somebody in your lifethat is battling addiction. When you say, let them, you’re not allowing somebody to succumb toaddiction. You’re not letting some narcissist walk all over you. That’s already happening. Whenyou say, let them. Let them be exactly who they are right now. Let their behavior reveal who theyare and where I stand. Because I think part of the problem that we get into with other people isthat we live in a fantasy in our head, making excuses for behavior that’s disrespectful because wedon’t want to deal with it or we hope they’re going to change, or we’re just used to this pattern, orwe have trauma in our background. And so there’s more complicated reasons why we do this.But my hope is that when you say let them make it all about themselves, let them be passiveaggressive, let them be a challenging personality. Let them have their addiction. What you’redoing, Jonathan, is you’re forcing yourself to practice radical acceptance. This is what I’mdealing with, and I am going to stop gaslighting myself into believing this person’s going tochange.
Mel Robbins: [00:45:59] I’m going to stop bracing because I’m wishing they would be different.And I’m going to walk into this experience with this person and this relationship with my eyeswide open. This is who this person is. And now I do the let me part, which is if I know I’mdealing with somebody that is got an active addiction and they are lying to me. Their behaviortells me that. Let me decide what time and energy I’m going to give to this. If I am dealing withsomebody who’s got a narcissistic personality style and they always make it about them and theyalways erupt and they always gossip and they always are draining, let them be that way. Now letme decide how much time and energy do I give to this person. Let me remind myself I’m notgoing to change this person. The only thing that can change is my energy and my behavioraround it. And if I’m going to choose to be around this person, then if I want it to feel different, Ihave to be different. And it starts with recognizing that this is exactly who this person is. It’s whothey’ve always been. It’s who they are right now, and they’re showing you who they are throughtheir behavior. So let them. Because when you let them show you who they are, you now aredealing with the facts, which changes how you show up. That is that. And this is easier said thandone, particularly when you’re in a cycle of abuse, when you have past trauma.
Jonathan Fields: [00:47:23] If you really care about the other person, of course, that’s it’s likeyou’re trying to like in that case, you’re really trying to protect them because it’s like you feel likeyou can see three steps ahead, you can see the harm that’s coming their way, and you don’t wantit to happen. But at the end of the day, you also don’t want to suffer the anxiety of seeing themexperience that harm. So part of it is your own discomfort with like the feeling that you don’twant to have. You know what jumps out at me. What you just described also is this notion thatit’s almost like the let them part is a prerequisite to the let me part. You know, there’s a Buddhisttenet that translates roughly to abandon hope. I always hated it. I completely I was like, howfutile is it? How awful is that? That’s a teaching that you should follow. And then, as you know,like I’ve had tinnitus, I have a sound that has been in my head for years now, and in the verybeginning it was destroying me. It was taking, really taking me out. And all day, every day, all Icould try and figure out was how to stop this from happening. And I couldn’t function. And I waslooking for every cure, every possible thing. And, you know, like for many people, it doesn’t evergo away. Sometimes your brain habituates and you’re pretty fine, sometimes not. It causes justgreat distress and harm.
Jonathan Fields: [00:48:31] For me, I got to a point, and I remember thinking about thisBuddhist slogan back then, and I was like, I can’t abandon hope that this will someday change.And then I finally got to a point where I tried so many different things, right? And I was like,okay. So for some reason, my brain is and the them in this scenario is literally my own brain. Mybrain is generating a sound inside of my head that only I can hear, right? I can’t do anything. I’veliterally tried everything. All the doctors are like, there’s nothing big time wrong with you, andthere’s nothing we can do to help you. So I get to a point where I’m like, okay, this is me for life.Then what? Which is the functional equivalent of saying let them or let it. Let my own brain. Thebrain is my them at this point, and until I hit that point, I was spending zero energy trying tofigure out, like, if I do have some power in this scenario, to be okay if this doesn’t change, if it’sjust going to go on this way, what is what does that power look like? What is this? And that’swhen everything changed for me when I started to actually understand like okay, so are therepractices. Are there things that I can do. Are there skills I can develop that will allow me to makepeace with this thing if it never goes away? And in fact, I think.
Mel Robbins: [00:49:47] That is.
Jonathan Fields: [00:49:47] And it took years to do that. Yeah, but I couldn’t get to that place ofme stepping into the place of power until I let go of literally the them that was a part of my ownbrain.
Mel Robbins: [00:50:00] Jonathan, that is so beautiful. I apologize for talking over you. I it’ssometimes challenging, you know, on the remote because it looks like you’re done. What Iwanted to say about that, because it ties back to the relationship thing. There is one thing that youwill never be able to change, and that’s another person. And I once heard Doctor Ramani, who’sregarded as, you know, the world’s leading expert on narcissistic personality styles, say that thesingle biggest thing that causes a lot of damage and keeps people in a lot of dynamics withpeople that have narcissistic personality or borderline personality, like all those challengingdynamics, is the hope that they’re going to change. And that’s there’s obviously a lot of researchunderneath that is more trauma informed. But this it’s exactly what you’re saying. And I feel likethere is a way to hold out the belief that somebody is capable of getting sober. The belief thatsomebody is capable of taking better care of themselves. The belief that somebody is capable ofbeing more responsible with money, or the belief that somebody is capable of working throughtheir issues and getting into a very healthy, long term relationship. But that is different thanhoping somebody does, because to me, what you’re describing is the hope that this is going tochange often can keep you doing in relationships exactly what you did with your own brain,which is looking for ways that it can change instead of going you know what? This is exactlyhow it is right now, and I need to adjust my life and how I show up with the reality of what is,instead of resisting what is in the hope that it changes. And so I think what you just explainedsummarizes this exactly, because let them forces you to let people be who they are. Becausewhen you let people be who they are, your relationships get better because you now see whoyou’re dealing with instead of imposing an expectation or hope that they be different.
Jonathan Fields: [00:52:25] It is fascinating to me that there’s this. This sense of abandoninghope can actually be one of the most empowering things that you can do. It’s a littlecounterintuitive, and it’s like you said, like it’s not like you’re just giving up on the possibilitythat something outside of your control can change. That would be awesome if it could. But youhave to like that is like the unlock key for you to say, let me now reallocate my energy to what Iactually am in control of myself. And that is where circling all the way back to earlier in theconversation, fundamentally, in the day, this is really a conversation about power and agency,you know, and that’s where you start to reclaim it. And I think especially in this day and age, somany of us feel so devoid of power and agency that it’s a really powerful message to explore.
Mel Robbins: [00:53:11] I agree with you. I was I’m sitting here kind of just noodling the thepart about hope because, you know, I often say that I think one of the single biggest things thatstand in a person’s way when it comes to changing anything about your life is this sense ofdiscouragement that it’s not going to work. And I think what the nuance that I would put in this isthat, you know, hope to me is kind of one of these things that’s sort of like a wish that I just reallyhope that somehow this turns around and to me, this idea, that belief, and I’m thinking about it inthe context of when you have a family member that’s really struggling, like all the experts thatwe talk to when we were looking at let them and let me, especially in the area of addiction,there’s this famous saying in addiction that people only get sober when getting when being drunkis harder than doing the very hard work of facing the things that you don’t want to face. Andthat’s why you can’t make anybody get sober. You can’t make people heal that people only heal,and people only change when they’re ready to do the hard work to change. And people aretypically only ready to do that hard work when they’re ready for themselves. And if you look atall the brain science around this that, you know, we quoted in the book and talked to all theseneuroscientists, if you look at the basic wiring of the human brain, we default towards what’seasy right now.
Mel Robbins: [00:54:45] And we also like push away from what’s hard, which if you put it inthe context of any kind of change, this is why changing is so hard, because we reflexively movetowards what we know and what’s easy, and we reflexively push away from the thing that’s hard.So there is almost nothing that you could do that would have something happen in anotherhuman being’s brain over the long term to make changing suddenly easier. They have to havethat happen within themselves, and it’s a hard thing to grasp, to understand that there is anecessary amount of struggle that every one of us has to go through in order to organize thenecessary internal friction that has your brain shift and go, okay, sitting on the couch and literallymaking the world’s worst choices and letting myself go is now harder than getting up and justgoing to the damn gym, because I’ve gotten so frustrated with myself that I’m not going to do thatanymore. But it has to come from within, and that’s a extremely difficult thing to grasp. And thatlet them. Theory doesn’t make it easy. It gives you the tools, as you said so beautifully, tounderstand where is power, where is agency, and particularly when you’re dealing with twopeople. Power and agency are in different places for both of you, and you want to work with thelaws of human nature, not against it, like I was for 54 years.
Jonathan Fields: [00:56:28] Absolutely. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle inour conversation as well. So I’ve asked you this question before. It was a bunch of years ago atthis point, in this container of Good Life Project., if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, whatcomes up.
Mel Robbins: [00:56:43] To spend your time and energy on the things that actually matter to you and not waste it on the stupid shit that currently drains it?
Jonathan Fields: [00:56:55] Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode safe bet,you will also love the earlier conversation we had with Mel about taking care of yourself andyour health, you’ll find a link to that episode in the show notes. This episode of Good LifeProject was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing helpBy Troy Young. Kristoffer Carter crafted our theme music and special thanks to Shelley AdelleBliss for her research on this episode. And of course, if you haven’t already done so, please goahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If youfound this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you’restill listening here. Do me a personal favor. A seven-second favor. Share it with just one person.And if you want to share it with more, that’s awesome too. But just one person even then, invitethem to talk with you about what you’ve both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas thatreally matter. Because that’s how we all come alive together. Until next time, I’m Jonathan Fieldssigning off for Good Life Project.